how common is the shoot and how wise is it?

[chris davis 200]

Hi Guys

How Common is the shoot in street encounters?

I have been in and seen a fair few encounters and have never seen it used. By this i dont mean someone who is skilled in MMAs performing it - i mean two hard fighters (or groups) going for each other in the streets not attempting this type of tackle.

and it may well be a bit more common in the UK due to Rugby. Rugby tackles are fairly common but they are not the classical shoot, more of a very low shoulder bardge.

from the other viewpoint - Is doing a shoot actually a good idea in the street? does it leave you too exposed?

interested in your thoughts guys.

Cheers

Chris

[Shoot]

There's no real statistics of course. But many of us believe that there is a natural progression in unarmed combat toward a clinch of some kind which often leads to falling to the ground in some kind of a tie up. I would say that charging and tackling is common in street fights. A typical "fight" (versus a criminal assault) involves some frantic slugging/swinging/punching/kicking that often leads to someone charging and tackling or pinning their opponent against a wall. It may not be your text book "shot." It may be more of a waist tackle, unless the fighter is versed in wrestling or football and knows how to take a person down by their legs. Waist tackles may or may not take a person down. It may lead to a standing clinch where any number of things could happen--clinch fighting--seperating--falling to ground etc... I disagree with many who say that "most fights end up on the ground." I think most fights end up in a clinch and many of those go to the ground, but many don't. I think you'll find that when people get into a fight they find how hard it can be to land a clean strike on a resisting and alert opponent. In desperation they will charge forward probably without much idea of where they are going with it. Sometimes they will just grab a person around the waist and drive them backwards which may cause the person to lose balance and fall.

A very common scenario in real fights that you won't see much in MMA is a grounded opponent. People often fall in fights and can't get up. Street fghts never occur how you "want" them too. One very big consideration in a street fight is your footing and objects around you. You may be slightly intoxicated or tired, you could be dizzy from being hit by surprise, you may be stabbed and bleeding, or the ground may be slippery or you may have bad shoes on etc.... Any number of things could ground you or your opponent. You may slip or get knocked down or trip or whatever. Once an person is grounded they are subject to very dangerous kicks and other attacks. THis is not common in MMA because striking a downed man while on the feet is usually outlawed in MMA and footing is good. IMO grounding your opponent while remaining standing is the ideal situation in a street fight. Judo and Wrestling both recognize this superior position. I would much rather have my assailant crawling/fumbling/scrambling on the ground while I remain standing--I can "finish him" or run like hell. Many combat experts agree. I would prefer this to even having "back mount" or some other dominant position on the ground. Which leads to a good topic about how to use the guard in a fight which is for another thread.

ANother very common scenario you'll see in street fights is wall pinning. In many early UFCs you saw this before it was outlawed. Otherwise you'll likely not see it anymore in MMA as it is anti-climactic and all too common a scenario, thus it is usually outlawed too. People get "wall mounted" and pounded. People may be pinned to a waist high object, such as a car hood, a counter top, a bar ect...

So, I think streetfighting is too dynamic and variable to say most people will shoot or most fights will go to the ground etc... But tackling and clinching are very likely.

[GeorgeK]

Good post, Shoot. You know what you're talking about. I'll add to that that the clinch is not addressed enough in most MA schools while it should be drilled over and over again because this is where most people in street encounters find themselves in. I bet you're affiliated with Straight Blast Gym or a simillar MMA organization.

[CKD]

There's no real statistics of course. But many of us believe that there is a natural progression in unarmed combat toward a clinch of some kind which often leads to falling to the ground in some kind of a tie up. I would say that charging and tackling is common in street fights. A typical "fight" (versus a criminal assault) involves some frantic slugging/swinging/punching/kicking that often leads to someone charging and tackling or pinning their opponent against a wall. It may not be your text book "shot." It may be more of a waist tackle, unless the fighter is versed in wrestling or football and knows how to take a person down by their legs. Waist tackles may or may not take a person down. It may lead to a standing clinch where any number of things could happen--clinch fighting--seperating--falling to ground etc... I disagree with many who say that "most fights end up on the ground." I think most fights end up in a clinch and many of those go to the ground, but many don't. I think you'll find that when people get into a fight they find how hard it can be to land a clean strike on a resisting and alert opponent. In desperation they will charge forward probably without much idea of where they are going with it. Sometimes they will just grab a person around the waist and drive them backwards which may cause the person to lose balance and fall.

A very common scenario in real fights that you won't see much in MMA is a grounded opponent. People often fall in fights and can't get up. Street fghts never occur how you "want" them too. One very big consideration in a street fight is your footing and objects around you. You may be slightly intoxicated or tired, you could be dizzy from being hit by surprise, you may be stabbed and bleeding, or the ground may be slippery or you may have bad shoes on etc.... Any number of things could ground you or your opponent. You may slip or get knocked down or trip or whatever. Once an person is grounded they are subject to very dangerous kicks and other attacks. THis is not common in MMA because striking a downed man while on the feet is usually outlawed in MMA and footing is good. IMO grounding your opponent while remaining standing is the ideal situation in a street fight. Judo and Wrestling both recognize this superior position. I would much rather have my assailant crawling/fumbling/scrambling on the ground while I remain standing--I can "finish him" or run like hell. Many combat experts agree. I would prefer this to even having "back mount" or some other dominant position on the ground. Which leads to a good topic about how to use the guard in a fight which is for another thread.

ANother very common scenario you'll see in street fights is wall pinning. In many early UFCs you saw this before it was outlawed. Otherwise you'll likely not see it anymore in MMA as it is anti-climactic and all too common a scenario, thus it is usually outlawed too. People get "wall mounted" and pounded. People may be pinned to a waist high object, such as a car hood, a counter top, a bar ect...

So, I think streetfighting is too dynamic and variable to say most people will shoot or most fights will go to the ground etc... But tackling and clinching are very likely.

I agree with what Shoot says, you will not find a wrestler shoot much but a tackle happens often. But just a few corrections will be made. Pride FC allows a person to stomp and kick a downed opponent and the UFC allows people to be pinned against the cage.

[Andrew Green]

Your asking about a refined technique and untrained fighters...

How common is any technique done "correctly" by an untrained fighter.

There are punches, but are they throwing jabs, crosses and hooks?

[music guy nick]

The shoot is not all that common, and I don't recommend it for one MAJOR reason - Its called pavement. A CORRECTLY done shoot has you dropping to one knee and that knee dragging on the ground a couple inches. Bad news if your on the pavement, and last time I looked, pavement is everywhere. You may say "what if Im on the grass?".....I say bad news as well. Grassy ground is slippery, throw in some tennis shoes or the boots your wearing, and you will find you can't get the proper traction to execute a good shoot in. Thats why its not tought much in BJJ, the gracies never tought it or used it, because the gracies found that in the street/grass/sand, it doesn't work well.

Go for the clinch always, and work from there.

[Andrew Green]

A correctly done shoot does not require you to drop to one knee.

And even if you do drop your knee, ok it's a little sore, but now the other guy is on the pavement with you on top of him. So I'd say you got the better of the deal.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

And even if you do drop your knee, ok it's a little sore, but now the other guy is on the pavement with you on top of him. So I'd say you got the better of the deal

if the guy is trying to hit me, I usually go for the double leg, pick them up on my shoulder and slam them on the ground. Amazing how fast that can demoralize and dissipate their aggressiveness with that move.

[Thai Bri]

Its not so great to have the beter deal of a guy when his mates do a Highland Dance on the back of your head.

The ground is a shit place to be in a real go. Yes, you MUST learn how to do it..... But taking it there on purpose has got to be a last resort. Unless, of course, it is the only place you know.........(cue Highland Dance).

[doubleouch]

Come on Bri, are we really going to get into that tired old debate?

Its not so great to have the beter deal of a guy when his mates do a Highland Dance on the back of your head.

The ground is a shit place to be in a real go. Yes, you MUST learn how to do it..... But taking it there on purpose has got to be a last resort. Unless, of course, it is the only place you know.........(cue Highland Dance).

[The Technical]

Its not so great to have the beter deal of a guy when his mates do a Highland Dance on the back of your head.

The ground is a shit place to be in a real go. Yes, you MUST learn how to do it..... But taking it there on purpose has got to be a last resort. Unless, of course, it is the only place you know.........(cue Highland Dance).

I agree, in a street self-defense situation, avoid the ground like the plague. You should learn how to fight there, but stand-up fighting is the preferred way of dealing with the situation.
As for the question, the "shoot" is very common, at least where I live. If done properly it can be very effective; yet it can still be considered a risky move, you're exposing yourself to a wide variety of attacks (eating knees, getting stabbed in the back or hurt by another and similarily damaging weapon, and a group stomping).

[music guy nick]

A correctly done shoot does not require you to drop to one knee.

And even if you do drop your knee, ok it's a little sore, but now the other guy is on the pavement with you on top of him. So I'd say you got the better of the deal.

Andrew, the way a correct shoot in wrestling is done with the shooter dropping to one knee to use his shoulder as leverage to arch up, lift and drop the person.

Your talking about the modified street version of the double leg, which is more like a tackle. Again, i have practiced this over and over on grass - and I have found that the grass is often way to slippery to get in the proper footing for a good shoot. Even on cement, where you CAN get good footing your still running the risk - anything can happen on the way down, and its VERY common to hit your head when your tackling someone that way - thats why the gracies tought to clinch first. Even if you keep your head across there body near there stomach on the way down, all the person has to do is lean you head first to the side on the way down. Its not all that hard for them to do, and you will smack your face in the pave ment.

To each there own I guess......But i have founf it SO EASY on untrained people who know nothing to take them down safely at will from the clinch, so I don't need to tackle anyone.

[Ahoym8e]

The "o soto Gare" (sp) double leg requires no knee on the ground, no tremendous traction or footing, and if you hit your head on the ground you had it on the wrong side (same side as forward leg).

You'll want to set up the shoot, not just dive in out of nowhere. It can be set up nicely from hand-fighting, the clinch (especially the thai clinch) or right after a punch exchange. Always try to keep your head on the opposite side of your forward leg, or you run the risk of geting guilliotined during the takedown and knocking yourself out by hitting your head on the ground.

The shoot is effective also when you've had your bell rung and need to take things to the ground and collect yourself. (and forget about the 3 buddies in the bushes or the broken glass on the floor ) If you've just taken a good shot to the head you want to clinch up or/and take him down, buddies in the bushes or not.

[ryangruhn]

I am not about to skin me knees in a gravel parking lot or have me head slammed off the curb trying to put an arm bar on. Personally I like to stay standing as much as possible and use only stand-up grappling when in the street.

Gruhn

[asymmetrik]

1. when shooting a double, the front knee need not bounce off the ground. the shooter needs to just change levels, penetrate, and then drive or turn the corner (or a whole lot of other options).

2. a double is rarely a simple tackle.

3. a double doesn't need to be shot from far away.

4. osoto gari is not a double leg. morote gari is.

"Is doing a shoot actually a good idea in the street? does it leave you too exposed?"

If done well it can be a fight ender. If done poorly it can get you into trouble. Just like a punch or a kick.

If your opponent is a better striker and you can't just run away and you are a confident grappler the answer seems simple.

It's another tool and if the opportunity presents itself then use it.