The Best Self Defense System to study ?

[DragonAE86]

ha! ha!

I can't believe how many ppl actually respond to post's like this

[Ryu (JKD?)]

After researching all systems I have rated the best and worst systems to study for street defense

Best systems

1. Thai Boxing/Mai Tai
2. Kyoshuana Karate
3. Modern Arnis and Kali

Worst systems

1. BJJ
2. Wrestling
3. kungfu
4 judo
5. aikido
6. Atemi - pressure point dimak stuff

As you can see thai boxing and hard style karate rate as no.1 because they dont waste time learning forms or wearing pyjamas and waving your hands in teh air like some kungfu jerk.

Judo is stupid because u dotn wanna wrestle with someone in the street

the worst systems are good for sport.

atemi is no good because these days people wear jumpers and leather jackets so u cant do pressure point stuff on a person.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Thanks for that. I can start my day off with a smile!

Mai Tai is a tropical drink.

[gregimotis]

Although, you know what... Mai Tai might be a good self defence strategy if you think about it....

[cakegirl]

You're right, gregimotis. The more mai tais I have, the less I care if I'm attacked.

Maybe we can market this self-defence system and sell DVDs for exorbitant prices?

Ooh, and we could make people pay big bucks to be affiliated to GCMTS International. (Gregimotis Cakegirl Mai Tai System.)

[Garland]

Jack daniels is the superior art to mai tai....think about it...mai tai's are for girls.
Kill a fifth of Jack Daniels and you BECOME the agressor of the situation. Who's going to try and jump a belligerant bum (yup, after a fifth, anyone can become JD drunk, superhero) holding a bottle of Jack?
JD is like a bad friend who keeps telling you;
"pussy's pussy" or "Those kids in the low rider be talkin' shit...you gonna let that shit slip...?!" or "Man...cops really think it's funny when you toss lit m-80's and bottles at their car when you speed past." etc.
Be the evil bastard...no body'll mess. Thug life.




























If anyone takes what I just wrote seriously...they needs to start working on a fifth. If I hear any shit from this post...I'M starting on a fifth...and I TOLE U What THAT means, k'ay? Look at you now...but you didn' listen...tony montana...ahh screw it, I'm goin' bed now.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

On a serious note about real Muay Thai,

I'm currently training with a friend of mine who trained Muay Thai in Laos for 10 years. His father fought in Thailand for a number of years. I'm having the time of my life and I can't believe how exhausted that training gets you.

Hardcore Muay Thai from a great player without any expense! Couldn't ask for a better deal.

[Shoot]

Karate--misunderstood, underestimated

Karate has become one of the most misunderstood and underestimated martial arts ever when it comes to self defense. This is coming from a Boxer/Wrestling/BJJ practitioner who believes in PRACTICAL and realistic fighting and self defense methods and views everything else as just exercise. I don’t group true Karate in the just for fun category. Unfortunately Karate made a poor showing in early UFCs and is virtually unheard of in MMA but has made some showing in K-1. Karate becomes the butt of jokes by a great many burly tough guy who usually have pretty good “street fighting” records with their own “one punch one kill” fighting method–the sucker punch. We’ve all heard stories of Karate men being pummeled nearly to death by street punks and the like, so why do I defend Karate?

I think the problem with Karate is not in true Karate, but with the way many schools teach it. Katas serve a very important role in Karate. Katas build feel for movements, they give you exercise etc... But, katas served as a way of preserving techniques in a time when it was difficult if not dangerous to write and record such movements. Katas were living video tapes. The katas have disguised moves in them or moves that are difficult to identify without someone knowledgeable pointing them out to you.

These "hidden techniques" are not mysterious or magical, they're really quite simple and easy to learn. They're just practical self defense stuff. You’ll find all kinds of grabbing and throwing in Karate katas that an untrained eye might not see. For most of Karate’s history there were no colored belts. Unfortunately, many schools and systems place such an emphasis on performing Katas for belts that the Katas become virtually meaningless to all too many people. The katas become prerequisite dances for belt attainment in many schools.

I submit that Karate in practice is the derivation of the kata, not the kata itself. In other words, Karate in practice may not necessarily look like its artful archetype embodied in the kata. Many schools miss this. It is apparent to me as a martial artist standing outside of Karate looking in that the Katas and rigid stances and techniques are more teaching aids for building proper form and balance. We do similar things in boxing, such as crouching bag work to develop leg work. We even do something similar to one-step sparring. The forward thrust in Karate styles is very much like the “drop step” in boxing. When the correct striking form is learned and balance is achieved, I believe Karateka should be free to personalize their Karate. They don’t have to chamber fists at the hip etc... to be Karateka.

Karate competition has changed the nature of Karate as many understand it. True Karate by its nature and theory covers all ranges of combat and includes in-fighting, defenses against grabs, and even throws. What about ground fighting? True, however, a deeper understanding of how Karate works in theory is in order before one jumps to the conclusion that Karate has no “ground fighting.”

I study combat systems. One thing you’ll find in many modern combat systems is the use of VITAL POINT STRIKING techniques that can be employed from just about any angle–side by side, upside down, underwater, standing on a balance beam, on a boat, in a car–you name it. These strikes are not dependant upon stance, surface, or situations. These strikes are versatile and general. They are simple and easy to learn and hard to forget. So, when you don’t have time to think, they flow out. Many other martial arts, especially JuJutsu use “wazas” which are “tricks” or “techniques” used for various situations. For every situation there is a specific technique, which when mastered, is devastating. The drawback is the amount of time and energy it takes to learn those wazas. Takes the ground fighting we do in BJJ for example. The basics are quite simple. But this stuff gets complicated fast. It gets technical. Much more technical then, say, striking a vital point. The other thing about martial arts like BJJ that use wazas is that even the simplist technique lose effectiveness when the opponent knows of them. For example, it is difficult to submit a fellow BJJ player. And, some simple wazas can be frustratingly difficult to execute. How many of my grappling brethren struggle to "pass the guard" or "knee and elbow escape" the mount or a side control position even though they know these techniques very well. If you ever study combat systems you’ll see that many, with perhaps Sambo as somewhat of exception, look very much like karate without katas--they're like dirty karate. Why? Because you can learn it in a short amount of time and virtually cannot forget it. In combatives Katas aren’t necessary because the techniques are readily stored and preserved on paper, film, whatever. I consider many of the combatives I’ve reviewed to be something like modern versions of Karate before Karate became a “do.” So, true Karate techniques can be used even if on the ground under someone’s mount–but not in a sport competition of course. This is not to say that Karate is superior to say BJJ on the ground or that it will always work etc... I think of combat in terms of probabilities of success and failure. The truth is that if you're under mount your likelihood of success if decreased by mere virtue of the position. The fight is largely won and lost in the scramble for position. Once in a submissive position you do what you can--reverse, escape, or do something a Karate guy would do. It's another strategy. As a person who is not a professional fighter or who doesn’t have the time to learn complex groundfighting skills like a Judoka or JuJutsuka, the vital point strikes in Karate offer a simple alternative for real world, life and death confrontations which is what most people want to train to defend against, not fighting in rings or cages for money or fighting in bars for ego. Even some famous combat experts took the position that systematic ground fighting was too complicated and took too long to teach--they recommended people take a Judo class, but for the time being learn vital point striking (basically Karate type strikes) and use them if you're unfortunate enough to be on your back looking up at your enemy. Karate, like many modern combatives systems was to be simple and effective, however Karate was not really a military system so much as a civil self defense system. It was never really designed for sport fighting like so many have wanted to make it. Karate is more like self defense stuff for average civilians which when learned the proper way can be very simple and effective.

[JasonE]

After researching all systems I have rated the best and worst systems to study for street defense

Riiiiiggggghhhhhhht. Troll.

[mmafighter_okc]

After all that, all I can say is I am a Karate man and I bleed on the inside!!

[Tom Yum]

Karate has become one of the most misunderstood and underestimated martial arts ever when it comes to self defense. This is coming from a Boxer/Wrestling/BJJ practitioner who believes in PRACTICAL and realistic fighting and self defense methods and views everything else as just exercise. I don’t group true Karate in the just for fun category. Unfortunately Karate made a poor showing in early UFCs and is virtually unheard of in MMA but has made some showing in K-1. Karate becomes the butt of jokes by a great many burly tough guy who usually have pretty good “street fighting” records with their own “one punch one kill” fighting method–the sucker punch. We’ve all heard stories of Karate men being pummeled nearly to death by street punks and the like, so why do I defend Karate?

I think the problem with Karate is not in true Karate, but with the way many schools teach it. Katas serve a very important role in Karate. Katas build feel for movements, they give you exercise etc... But, katas served as a way of preserving techniques in a time when it was difficult if not dangerous to write and record such movements. Katas were living video tapes. The katas have disguised moves in them or moves that are difficult to identify without someone knowledgeable pointing them out to you.

These "hidden techniques" are not mysterious or magical, they're really quite simple and easy to learn. They're just practical self defense stuff. You’ll find all kinds of grabbing and throwing in Karate katas that an untrained eye might not see. For most of Karate’s history there were no colored belts. Unfortunately, many schools and systems place such an emphasis on performing Katas for belts that the Katas become virtually meaningless to all too many people. The katas become prerequisite dances for belt attainment in many schools.

I submit that Karate in practice is the derivation of the kata, not the kata itself. In other words, Karate in practice may not necessarily look like its artful archetype embodied in the kata. Many schools miss this. It is apparent to me as a martial artist standing outside of Karate looking in that the Katas and rigid stances and techniques are more teaching aids for building proper form and balance. We do similar things in boxing, such as crouching bag work to develop leg work. We even do something similar to one-step sparring. The forward thrust in Karate styles is very much like the “drop step” in boxing. When the correct striking form is learned and balance is achieved, I believe Karateka should be free to personalize their Karate. They don’t have to chamber fists at the hip etc... to be Karateka.

Karate competition has changed the nature of Karate as many understand it. True Karate by its nature and theory covers all ranges of combat and includes in-fighting, defenses against grabs, and even throws. What about ground fighting? True, however, a deeper understanding of how Karate works in theory is in order before one jumps to the conclusion that Karate has no “ground fighting.”

Every once in a while someone will crack a joke about karate, but when you've been involved in the martial arts long enough you know that there are some serious karate guys out there who are fierce fighters.

The thing is that they are so few in numbers and it just happens to be because karate attracts alot of different people for different reasons. Karate is also an awesome tool for self-discipline and focus; maybe someone really needs that skill set in their life, so they go and learn karate.

On top of that, karate is more likely to attract people whom are generally sedentary to start with (but not allways the case, cause Enshin and Kyokushin are produce fierce fighters). Whereas alot of athletes or fitness enthusiasts get into muay thai, boxing so they can apply their attributes as realistically as possible in a controlled environment.

[cakegirl]

Well said, Shoot and Tom.

I'm a karate-ka and have been for 14 years. I agree with just about everything that Shoot said about karate (pretty well-stated for someone who doesn't do karate, Shoot!). There are kata that contain ground fighting joint lock techniques as well (the 3 known as Tekki in Shotokan and I think Naihanchi in other styles).

Tom, your point was also good, about the types of people that do karate. At my school, we have a LOT of kids, and many of those are there because either they have ADD and their parents heard that training in martial arts is good for ADD kids, or the parents of non-ADD kids are just looking for a convenient after-school activity that is on at a good time and is close to home/school. There are also some that get their kids in so that they can learn self-defence.

As for the adults, we get all types, but some standout "themes" are... Older adults (usually male in, say their 50s) who always secretly wanted to do karate and only now have gotten up the courage to join a school. Women in their 20s or 30s who are desperately shy but may have had a "self-defence scare" and then heard about our school and the fact that it's owned by a woman. Mums and Dads who want an activity they can share with their kids.

Obviously, these people are not going to be the ones entering the UFC. They're not even going to enter local karate tournaments. They're also not going to be down at the pub on a Friday night starting fights. But these people are the majority of the karate people I come into contact with on a daily basis.

The guys that are more aggressive and are just looking to learn how to fight come to our school, sign up, may make it through their first grading, and then quit because their needs are not being fulfilled by our school (i.e. they get frustrated by remembering the katas, they don't understand why we teach technique first and sparring second, etc). Which is fine by us! We know what those guys want (usually something more like muay thai or kickboxing), and we are happy to recommend local schools that offer those lessons. Hey, we even recommend some of them to go into our back room to take the BJJ class!

Um, I think that's all.

Cakegirl

[doubleouch]

Karate has become one of the most misunderstood and underestimated martial arts ever when it comes to self defense. This is coming from a Boxer/Wrestling/BJJ practitioner who believes in PRACTICAL and realistic fighting and self defense methods and views everything else as just exercise. I don’t group true Karate in the just for fun category. Unfortunately Karate made a poor showing in early UFCs and is virtually unheard of in MMA but has made some showing in K-1. Karate becomes the butt of jokes by a great many burly tough guy who usually have pretty good “street fighting” records with their own “one punch one kill” fighting method–the sucker punch. We’ve all heard stories of Karate men being pummeled nearly to death by street punks and the like, so why do I defend Karate?

I think the problem with Karate is not in true Karate, but with the way many schools teach it. Katas serve a very important role in Karate. Katas build feel for movements, they give you exercise etc... But, katas served as a way of preserving techniques in a time when it was difficult if not dangerous to write and record such movements. Katas were living video tapes. The katas have disguised moves in them or moves that are difficult to identify without someone knowledgeable pointing them out to you.

We now have video and everyone can write so why still teach kata? Why not just teach the techniques directly?

These "hidden techniques" are not mysterious or magical, they're really quite simple and easy to learn. They're just practical self defense stuff. You’ll find all kinds of grabbing and throwing in Karate katas that an untrained eye might not see. For most of Karate’s history there were no colored belts. Unfortunately, many schools and systems place such an emphasis on performing Katas for belts that the Katas become virtually meaningless to all too many people. The katas become prerequisite dances for belt attainment in many schools.

Kata's don't teach the technique. They only cataloque them in a now inconvenient way. The only way to learn the technique is to practice it against a resisting partner. Performing the technique in the air is not learning it.

I submit that Karate in practice is the derivation of the kata, not the kata itself. In other words, Karate in practice may not necessarily look like its artful archetype embodied in the kata. Many schools miss this. It is apparent to me as a martial artist standing outside of Karate looking in that the Katas and rigid stances and techniques are more teaching aids for building proper form and balance. We do similar things in boxing, such as crouching bag work to develop leg work. We even do something similar to one-step sparring. The forward thrust in Karate styles is very much like the “drop step” in boxing. When the correct striking form is learned and balance is achieved, I believe Karateka should be free to personalize their Karate. They don’t have to chamber fists at the hip etc... to be Karateka.

Shaddow boxing is very different than Kata because there is not a pre-arranged sequence of moves. It is all free form. Why can't you learn correct form and balance through practicing the techniques against an actual resistant partner?

Karate competition has changed the nature of Karate as many understand it. True Karate by its nature and theory covers all ranges of combat and includes in-fighting, defenses against grabs, and even throws. What about ground fighting? True, however, a deeper understanding of how Karate works in theory is in order before one jumps to the conclusion that Karate has no “ground fighting.”

People say Karate has no groundfighting because most Karate don't practice groundfighting against resistant opponents. Just saying that the techniques of groundfighting are hidden in kata doesn't make you able to apply the techniques.

I study combat systems. One thing you’ll find in many modern combat systems is the use of VITAL POINT STRIKING techniques that can be employed from just about any angle–side by side, upside down, underwater, standing on a balance beam, on a boat, in a car–you name it. These strikes are not dependant upon stance, surface, or situations. These strikes are versatile and general. They are simple and easy to learn and hard to forget. So, when you don’t have time to think, they flow out. Many other martial arts, especially JuJutsu use “wazas” which are “tricks” or “techniques” used for various situations. For every situation there is a specific technique, which when mastered, is devastating. The drawback is the amount of time and energy it takes to learn those wazas. Takes the ground fighting we do in BJJ for example. The basics are quite simple. But this stuff gets complicated fast. It gets technical. Much more technical then, say, striking a vital point. The other thing about martial arts like BJJ that use wazas is that even the simplist technique lose effectiveness when the opponent knows of them. For example, it is difficult to submit a fellow BJJ player. And, some simple wazas can be frustratingly difficult to execute. How many of my grappling brethren struggle to "pass the guard" or "knee and elbow escape" the mount or a side control position even though they know these techniques very well. If you ever study combat systems you’ll see that many, with perhaps Sambo as somewhat of exception, look very much like karate without katas--they're like dirty karate. Why? Because you can learn it in a short amount of time and virtually cannot forget it. In combatives Katas aren’t necessary because the techniques are readily stored and preserved on paper, film, whatever. I consider many of the combatives I’ve reviewed to be something like modern versions of Karate before Karate became a “do.” So, true Karate techniques can be used even if on the ground under someone’s mount–but not in a sport competition of course. This is not to say that Karate is superior to say BJJ on the ground or that it will always work etc... I think of combat in terms of probabilities of success and failure. The truth is that if you're under mount your likelihood of success if decreased by mere virtue of the position. The fight is largely won and lost in the scramble for position. Once in a submissive position you do what you can--reverse, escape, or do something a Karate guy would do. It's another strategy. As a person who is not a professional fighter or who doesn’t have the time to learn complex groundfighting skills like a Judoka or JuJutsuka, the vital point strikes in Karate offer a simple alternative for real world, life and death confrontations which is what most people want to train to defend against, not fighting in rings or cages for money or fighting in bars for ego. Even some famous combat experts took the position that systematic ground fighting was too complicated and took too long to teach--they recommended people take a Judo class, but for the time being learn vital point striking (basically Karate type strikes) and use them if you're unfortunate enough to be on your back looking up at your enemy. Karate, like many modern combatives systems was to be simple and effective, however Karate was not really a military system so much as a civil self defense system. It was never really designed for sport fighting like so many have wanted to make it. Karate is more like self defense stuff for average civilians which when learned the proper way can be very simple and effective.

So effective self defense systems don't need kata? True. Then why study kata? Your logic about bjj is tragically flawed. The fact that someone can neutralize your bjj with a bit of bjj knowledge doesn't make bjj less effective. If you get knocked down and a big ugly guy sits on your chest and starts fluffing your face up like a cheap pillow wouldn't you want to have a good bjj game? Your vital point striking will not help in this situation, only a good knowledge of how to escape the mount.

[doubleouch]

I think there is a tragic missunderstanding on this board of what it means to actually learn something. Some of you think that just because you do a kata or can perform the technique against a cooperative partner that you've learned the technique. Not true.
Here is a good analogy using language:

There are 3 different language schools all teaching spanish. A prospective student goes to all 3 to check how they teach. Here is what he finds.

School1: School 1 has everyone memorize the bill of rights in spanish. Any student there can recite the whole thing perfectly without hesitation. No one, however can translate any of the words or tell you what they mean.

School2: Here everyone learns useful phrases like "where is the bathroom?" in spanish and practices them aloud with their partner. Everyone learns what the phrases mean and repeat them over and over again.

School 3: Here everyone learns a few useful phrases each day. After they learn the phrases they go to the spanish part of town and use their phrases in real live situations. They repeat this everyday. After awhile students can converse freely and get around very well in the spanish part of town without any english.

School 1- Kata only

School 2- Kata with practice with cooperative partner.

School 3- No kata. Technique is learned and application is practiced right away in the real arena or in an arena as close to the real thin as possible.

Where are you going to train?

[koto_ryu]

I think there is a tragic missunderstanding on this board of what it means to actually learn something. Some of you think that just because you do a kata or can perform the technique against a cooperative partner that you've learned the technique. Not true.

Katas and forms are probably the most disliked by Westerners in general, because let's face it: it's repetitive, downright boring, and most students don't see much point in it. Everyone knows you cannot do a kata on someone who jumps you, so why study them?

In the older times, kata was one of the main ways of learning the martial arts and was the core of many striking ones. Before they had sport karate and sparring and things like that, kata was used to put together all the different techniques learn and discover combinations that would be useful in a fight. You'll never be able to do a kata on someone who attacks you but you WILL be able to execute techniques taken from those kata on someone and not only that but rigid kata training will also toughen your mental resolve and make you a true martial artist instead of just a skilled brawler.

Most people do kata wrong nowadays, which is why they never see any point in them. They just do the techniques slowly and without power, watching the clock and waiting until they get to do something else. You need to execute those techniques with power, speed, and intensity, as if you were fighting for your life with maximum focus. It will also build on your technical knowledge, as if you did a kata that consisted mostly of low blocks a few hundred times, you're going to know exactly how that low block should be done and in a real combat situation snap it out quickly and properly without even thinking. The mental discipline, focus, and technical knowledge you will gain from kata will benefit you in many ways.

Another major thing people forget is to learn the kata in its proper application, as many people who do them never even know what they're trying to do with all that arm waving and such. You need to concentrate on what you are doing as you are doing it, much in the same way as shadowboxing as you envision live opponents attacking you.

Kata is an integral part of the martial arts, and doing them on a regular basis properly will definitely make you a more efficient martial artist.

[koto_ryu]

^ BtW, not mine, a good buddy of mine's who is a 3rd degree black belt in Meibukan Goju-Ryu karate, an very hard style of karate and very street applicable.