The Best Self Defense System to study ?

[Marik736]

Wrestling...

I would say Krav Maga (or a license to carry a gun) would be one of the most efficient ones and Wrestling would be one of the crappiest ones (except if you were carrying a fake chair around with you).

Wrestling/Pro Wrestling may not be practical if your getting attacked by more then one assailent, but coming from personal experiance with the system, one on one you can put the hurt on whomever's trying to attack you.

The stuff you see on TV isnt always the whole truth, as there is many subtypes to Professional styled Wrestling. Grappling, Mat, Submission, Lucha, just to name a few. It may seem like an inpracticacle system for defense, but if you know how to apply submissions proporly you can make someone pass out in mere seconds, break bones, or even kill a person (which, ya dont really want).

Wrestling impractical against more then one assailent? More then likely. One on one? Hardly (a good number of UFC champs have been Wrestlers).

[Shoot]

Katas--not all bad if you ask me

One of the things I like about traditional martial arts is its emphasis on form. Thats the point of the Kata with all the rigid stances and strikes and blocks etc... Take chambering a fist on the hip for example. Not a real good idea in a fight. But, if you learn to throw the punch from the power of the hip (Karate style), how to turn the fist, how to stay loose and then tighten up at the moment of impact, how to reverse the movement of your torso for more power, how to plant your feet for power--all learned in Karate style punching, then you've got a hard punch. Now move that hand off your hip to about chin level. Now you've got a great guard and a hard punch. That's how Karate works. People miss that point.

I could teach a person how to box in 1 day. I could teach them about all they would probably ever realisticallly need to know about wrestling the next day. Then, on the third day I could teach all you would probably ever really use from BJJ. That's a great system. But, I bet the student in the 3 day crash course wouldn't be very good. I see this all the time. Not in such an extreme example like above, but not much better. Sloppy form is rampant. I see guys all the time so concerned about power in their punching that it is absolutely terrible--they don't take the time to work on an idealized form. They ought to crouch in a horse riding stance and work on that form or do something similar. Same with BJJ and Wrestling--people get so competative in "rolling" in class that they don't ever learn any good form which is why some form training removed from competition is a good idea. Personally, I'm selective about who I'll grapple with nowadays. I'm sick of grappling with guys with terrible form who don't know how to do anyting other than grab your head, wrist, or other appendage and use all their might to try to force a submission on you. Let me guess that sorry ass triangle attempt is going to flow right into a sorry ass arm bar attempt into a sorry ass omaplata attempt. Sorry, doesn't work against someone who knows a bit of BJJ--but it gets old fighting that crap off. They need to do things like flow drills and form work. Sorry to rant.

As you get older and more mature in the martial arts you appreciate things like good form and enjoying your study of martial arts. You also appriciate things like staying free from getting seriously injured from using sloppy form. So, I don't think katas are worthless. I think many of us need something like that to practice form and body feel. It's attribute training. I wouldn't want to rely on them as an end all and be all, but I doubt anybody serious about MA does.

[jubaji]

world class bullshit

I could teach a person how to box in 1 day. I could teach them about all they would probably ever realisticallly need to know about wrestling the next day. Then, on the third day I could teach all you would probably ever really use from BJJ.

And the next day you could go to the store and buy yourself a fucking clue!

[koto_ryu]

And the next day you could go to the store and buy yourself a fucking clue!

He said it was an extreme example, next time read the whole post

[Shoot]

And the next day you could go to the store and buy yourself a fucking clue!

You should have read my post further, "But, I bet the student in the 3 day crash course wouldn't be very good." Context, context, context.

Boxing = 2 staight punches, 2 hook punches, 2 uppercuts, slip, duck, step and slide, elbow and knee blocks, arm parries.

Wrestling = leg pick, hip throw, sprawl, cross face, snapdown, sprawl defense, front headlocks, front headlock escapes.

BJJ = closed guard, open guard, low guard pass, high guard pass, triangle choke, arm bar, omaplata, kimura, americana, mount, scarf hold, cross body, tturtle, turtle escape, reverse scissor lock, knee and elbow escapes, reversals--upa, rolling left, rolling right, rolling forward, rolling under. Submission defense: prevent leverage of limb ie. stop it from moving. Choke defense: stop choke, look up, comb your hair. (actually BJJ should be taught as 3 principles of grappling and 2 princples of submissions--then you can derive the entire system).

3 days is plenty of time to demonstrate the above and have someone repeat them--it may take a lifetime to master and form work helps--that was kinda my point. forgive me if the above is not exhaustive of the various styles: it wasn't meant to be, plus I came up with the little list in 15 seconds. Anyway, you missed mypoint.

[Ronson]

To Shoot,

Enjoyed your post, but I have some points of contention,

"Now move that hand off your hip to about chin level. Now you've got a great guard and a hard punch. That's how Karate works. People miss that point."

Gotta call bullshite there buddy. It's a great guard and hard punch compared to what? Nothing. A great guard and hard punch is ultimately determined by good technique, conditioning, and sparring/fighting against a fully resisting opponent.

"Same with BJJ and Wrestling--people get so competative in "rolling" in class that they don't ever learn any good form which is why some form training removed from competition is a good idea. Personally, I'm selective about who I'll grapple with nowadays. I'm sick of grappling with guys with terrible form who don't know how to do anyting other than grab your head, wrist, or other appendage and use all their might to try to force a submission on you. Let me guess that sorry ass triangle attempt is going to flow right into a sorry ass arm bar attempt into a sorry ass omaplata attempt. Sorry, doesn't work against someone who knows a bit of BJJ--but it gets old fighting that crap off. They need to do things like flow drills and form work. Sorry to rant."

People with poor form while rolling do need more work in technique and drill work, but putting in ++++ mat time or rolling is essential in improving and integrating proper form and technique. Also, take the stick outta your ass and help the guys you're rolling with and correct their form. Rolling with these type of guys can be instrumental in your training too as you can work on your defense by putting yourself in bad positions and work on new offensive strategies/submissions. Although I do agree, there is an inherent risk in rolling with people with bad technique/form (newbs) in that they can get in the most F'd up, dangerous positions or submission attempts and have high incidences of spazzing out at the most unopportune time.

[doubleouch]

Katas and forms are probably the most disliked by Westerners in general, because let's face it: it's repetitive, downright boring, and most students don't see much point in it. Everyone knows you cannot do a kata on someone who jumps you, so why study them?

In the older times, kata was one of the main ways of learning the martial arts and was the core of many striking ones. Before they had sport karate and sparring and things like that, kata was used to put together all the different techniques learn and discover combinations that would be useful in a fight. You'll never be able to do a kata on someone who attacks you but you WILL be able to execute techniques taken from those kata on someone and not only that but rigid kata training will also toughen your mental resolve and make you a true martial artist instead of just a skilled brawler.

This is not olden times. Why use kata now? Kata will never teach you things that you can use in a fignt because the timing, distance, energy and resisting partner aren't there. The only way to learn to use the techniques is to use them in a situation that is close to the intended application as possible. Kata is not that. It is not an effecient way to learn. Rote memorization and repetition is not very effective. That's why we don't use it very much in schools any more. Kata does not teach application. I did Kata for more than 15 years with intensity and focuss. I learned more application in 2 days of boxing class than 15 years of Kata. You can argue that there is some learning from kata, but it is highly ineffecient. What good is it to have perfect form in a technique if you can't apply it?

Most people do kata wrong nowadays, which is why they never see any point in them. They just do the techniques slowly and without power, watching the clock and waiting until they get to do something else. You need to execute those techniques with power, speed, and intensity, as if you were fighting for your life with maximum focus. It will also build on your technical knowledge, as if you did a kata that consisted mostly of low blocks a few hundred times, you're going to know exactly how that low block should be done and in a real combat situation snap it out quickly and properly without even thinking. The mental discipline, focus, and technical knowledge you will gain from kata will benefit you in many ways.

You can do Kata several thousand times and you will never know how that technique should be done in a combat situation. Kata doesn't teach application!

Another major thing people forget is to learn the kata in its proper application, as many people who do them never even know what they're trying to do with all that arm waving and such. You need to concentrate on what you are doing as you are doing it, much in the same way as shadowboxing as you envision live opponents attacking you.

Again, Kata is nothing like shaddow boxing. Shaddow boxing does not use a pre-defined set of movements. If you think that thin air is a good substitute for an active resistant partner then you have some loose screws. Why use your imagination? Why not just practice the technique with a real partner?

Kata is an integral part of the martial arts, and doing them on a regular basis properly will definitely make you a more efficient martial artist.

[doubleouch]

One of the things I like about traditional martial arts is its emphasis on form. Thats the point of the Kata with all the rigid stances and strikes and blocks etc... Take chambering a fist on the hip for example. Not a real good idea in a fight. But, if you learn to throw the punch from the power of the hip (Karate style), how to turn the fist, how to stay loose and then tighten up at the moment of impact, how to reverse the movement of your torso for more power, how to plant your feet for power--all learned in Karate style punching, then you've got a hard punch. Now move that hand off your hip to about chin level. Now you've got a great guard and a hard punch. That's how Karate works. People miss that point.

I could teach a person how to box in 1 day. I could teach them about all they would probably ever realisticallly need to know about wrestling the next day. Then, on the third day I could teach all you would probably ever really use from BJJ. That's a great system. But, I bet the student in the 3 day crash course wouldn't be very good. I see this all the time. Not in such an extreme example like above, but not much better. Sloppy form is rampant. I see guys all the time so concerned about power in their punching that it is absolutely terrible--they don't take the time to work on an idealized form. They ought to crouch in a horse riding stance and work on that form or do something similar. Same with BJJ and Wrestling--people get so competative in "rolling" in class that they don't ever learn any good form which is why some form training removed from competition is a good idea. Personally, I'm selective about who I'll grapple with nowadays. I'm sick of grappling with guys with terrible form who don't know how to do anyting other than grab your head, wrist, or other appendage and use all their might to try to force a submission on you. Let me guess that sorry ass triangle attempt is going to flow right into a sorry ass arm bar attempt into a sorry ass omaplata attempt. Sorry, doesn't work against someone who knows a bit of BJJ--but it gets old fighting that crap off. They need to do things like flow drills and form work. Sorry to rant.

As you get older and more mature in the martial arts you appreciate things like good form and enjoying your study of martial arts. You also appriciate things like staying free from getting seriously injured from using sloppy form. So, I don't think katas are worthless. I think many of us need something like that to practice form and body feel. It's attribute training. I wouldn't want to rely on them as an end all and be all, but I doubt anybody serious about MA does.

Well, I think traditional martial arts over-emphasize proper form to the detriment of everything else. When I first started watching MMA I was suprised to see such lack of good form. My instructor has it right when someone asked him to critique their form in a kick he said I just want to know 2 things. Can you make it land? and Can you make it hurt? I'm not knocking good form, but I've seen plenty of guys who are very effective with mediocre form. I've also seen many guys with great form who couldn't last 10 seconds against a real live resisting opponent. In order to truly understand the value of proper form you need to spar alot. This puts everything into perspective in a way Kata never will.

[koto_ryu]

This is not olden times. Why use kata now? Kata will never teach you things that you can use in a fignt because the timing, distance, energy and resisting partner aren't there. The only way to learn to use the techniques is to use them in a situation that is close to the intended application as possible. Kata is not that. It is not an effecient way to learn. Rote memorization and repetition is not very effective. That's why we don't use it very much in schools any more. Kata does not teach application. I did Kata for more than 15 years with intensity and focuss. I learned more application in 2 days of boxing class than 15 years of Kata. You can argue that there is some learning from kata, but it is highly ineffecient. What good is it to have perfect form in a technique if you can't apply it?

You can do Kata several thousand times and you will never know how that technique should be done in a combat situation. Kata doesn't teach application!

Again, Kata is nothing like shaddow boxing. Shaddow boxing does not use a pre-defined set of movements. If you think that thin air is a good substitute for an active resistant partner then you have some loose screws. Why use your imagination? Why not just practice the technique with a real partner?

You obviously just hit quote and read it piece by piece then rather than reading the whole thing and then replying, because I did mention learning and practice using the proper application of the kata at least two or three times

Considering it says you're an art teacher, this may not be the best example but think of it like this: You've got two kids who are painters. You give one a bowl of fruit and tell him all year to paint nothing but that bowl of fruit, again and again and again. You give the other some new object every day and have him paint those. By the end of the year, you give them a live person to paint as their final exam and then compare the two. Whose do you think will be better?

The second student's painting will be pretty good, as he's had exposure to a lot of different things and will be able to put out a pretty talented picture for an amateur. Now look at the first student's painting. Sure he painted that bowl of fruit a million times over, but if you look at his it will probably have far more detail to it, such as shadows, angles, textures, and other artistic areas. He spent so much time on it that he did not just look at the object itself and paint it, he looked at all the fine details and in turn put out a far more superior picture.

If you honestly spent 15 years doing kata for nothing, then I hate to break it to you but you were training wrong. You must have never put any intensity into them at all or never focused on them, because if you have you will definitely see that kata has its advantages. Am I saying do it over all other things? No, but definitely don't call it worthless and toss it to the side.

[doubleouch]

Sorry Koto,
The second students work would be much better. I know from personal experience. If you have to do something else to learn how to actually use the technique then why do the kata? As both a teacher and martial artist I have found little value in rote repetition. If you look at any field of athletic endeavor you will see that the best practice closely resembles the event being trained for. Kata doesn't meet that definition. I'm still waiting for you to tell me what training Kata can give you that you can't get better and more effeciently in another way. If you punch and kick air then you will be very good at punching and kicking air.
My kata practice was just fine. Believe me I spent many hours disecting every part of the kata for applications. I worked hard on punching and kicking the imaginary opponent.
One day I realized however that I would be better off punching and kicking with a live body so I could study distance, timing, balance, and energy in an arena that was much closer to the actual event I was training for. How is kata different from Tae Bo?

[doubleouch]

Here is a quote from Matt Thornton that I think sums it up better than I could:
Believe it or not, there are still a few people out there that feel 'form', kata, or djuru training have some place for an athlete interested in performance. Why this belief still persists is a mystery, but lets see if we can lay the dead patterns to rest.
*The main reason people falsely believe forms have some sort of value is usually listed as "muscle memory". The idea that a move repeated enough times, becomes smoother, or more accessible during an altercation. Repeating a move over and over again in the air will do absolutely nothing for your reflexes or so called 'muscle memory'. In fact, repeating a move or series of moves over and over again in the same pattern and sequence will actually be counter productive to your bodies ability to respond quickly.
*First, there is no TIMING, without a resisting opponent in front of you. Since there is no timing to be had, your reflexes, or response time against a resisting opponent, will not change, increase, or be helped in the least.
*Second, there is no impact, as there is against a heavy bag. So there will be no benefit to your strength, body mechanics, or conditioning. In fact, your body mechanics may become altered in correctly due to the fact that you are not making impact against anything, but merely striking 'air'.
*Thirdly, even when shadowboxing (another comparison morticians like to make when making zombies), you never want to repeat the same series of movements to many times in a row! This is a basic rule all boxing coaches are very familiar with. Go to the well to many times and your opponent becomes 'wise' to your arsenal. An example would be a boxer whom always hooked off the jab. After the second attempt he becomes predictable, and easy to set up for a counter attack or knockout. This is why it's important to make sure your athletes shadowbox fluidly. Watch them to insure that they are NOT repeating the same sequence of movements, in the same order, over and over again.
*One basic difference that can be seen between a JKD Concepts Instructor, and a performance orientated Coach, is the difference in patterns. JKD Concepts Instructors, and indeed most 'traditional' Martial Artists, are consistently looking to learn, memorize, and repeat more and more patterns. A performance orientated Coach is always looking to break patterns, and movements that are repeated in the same order. A Coach should instead be watching his athlete to insure that when shadowboxing, working the heavybag, or any other piece of equipment,* that athlete is not always repeating the same route of movements or combinations. This makes a fighter robotic, stiff, predictable, and creates bad habits. There really is no justification for maintaining the antiquated bad methodology of 'form' training.

[koto_ryu]

Sorry Koto,
The second students work would be much better. I know from personal experience. If you have to do something else to learn how to actually use the technique then why do the kata? As both a teacher and martial artist I have found little value in rote repetition. If you look at any field of athletic endeavor you will see that the best practice closely resembles the event being trained for. Kata doesn't meet that definition. I'm still waiting for you to tell me what training Kata can give you that you can't get better and more effeciently in another way. If you punch and kick air then you will be very good at punching and kicking air.
My kata practice was just fine. Believe me I spent many hours disecting every part of the kata for applications. I worked hard on punching and kicking the imaginary opponent.
One day I realized however that I would be better off punching and kicking with a live body so I could study distance, timing, balance, and energy in an arena that was much closer to the actual event I was training for. How is kata different from Tae Bo?

If you read the whole post I presented before this time instead of just quoting it, you'll see what kata has to offer. Many people want to be just as good as some of the old masters and how did they get to be so good? Kata.

And we all know Matt Thornton is such an amazing martial artist, so any word he says we must take to heart He's not what I would call a quality martial artist. He is good, no doubt, and does have some relevant things to say but he's far from what I would call your best defense.

[doubleouch]

Do you know Matt? Have you ever met Matt? Have you ever trained with Matt?I assume you have some good evidence to back up your personal attack?
I read your posts and I haven't seen anything that gives any indication of the importance of kata in today's world. I suspect the old masters were good because they did alot of live sparring.
It's a pretty lousy tactic to attack the messinger if you can't refute the message. You sound like a republican this is starting to get too personal so I'm out.

[Studiobuddy]

boxing is where its at, or muay thai, sansoo

[Shoot]

Keep in mind that most traditional Karate schools also engage in sparring for real world application. I have to agree about rote rehearsal learning not being effective for something as variable as combat, but I don't think Karate is a rote rehearsal martial art like say, JuJutsu. Traditional forms of JuJutsu were the ultimate in rote rehearsal MA--they consisted of 100s of wazas of "if he does this, I do that." Its the old, "ok, come at like you have a knife, no like that,....wait, go slower, ok, raise your hand higer...now pretend your stabbing me" then you throw the guy across the room. You know what I mean? THat is rote rehearsal in the martial arts. BJJ is unfortunately taught in terms of wazas but is not as bad as traditional JJ. (THat's why I like wrestling--improve using principles but thats another topic).

I don't think Kata are rote rehearsal drills. THey are merely technique catelogues performed in an idealized manner to 1. preserve the techniques and 2. offer ONE form of practicing them. Again, Karateka do "basics" like you and me and do sparring. Ok, the sparring may not contact, but hey, not everybody wants drain bamage like smooshed faced boxers and you still get to develop skills against a live person. Also, my understanding is that throwing (ie. grappling) and then simulated striking on the ground is allowed in this sparring--not bad. Another good thing about the non-contact sparring is that you can practice lethal techniques without that dreadful side effect--death. You fight like you train, right? How often do you train in crushing windpipes when you box? Do you have to get smacked in the face to realize your mistakes? Not if you're smart. There's a point of view for you. In my mind the techniques in Karate are very general and adaptable, not rote rehearsal movements.

Well, I'm taking a beating on this thread because I merely pointed out some good stuff found in traditional MA, namely Karate and I don't even do karate. I never knew it was so controversal to say things like working form is a good idea. But, hey, the trend right now is geared away from tradition and toward "reality." I guess all those people who relied on tradtional martial arts to save their LIVES had their heads somewhere other than reality? And all of us know way more about life surrounded by the great potential of unarmed combat? Perspective.

There's a lot of controversy in MA right now, and that's cool. If traditional MA and forms work for you, then great. IMO, MA should be enjoyable and offer something a bit deeper than an attitude problem. I commend people who put on the gi and train. THat's better than 99.9% of the population, and I don't knock it just because I do something different right now.

I'm just breaking the ole "paradig'em". I gotta go shake off the insults I received. Apparently I need to remove a stick from my nether region and buy a clue tomorrow--man, why the hate? I gotta quit now before I talk myself into karate lessons.