Is MMA its own style?

[Shoot]

I remember someone made a comment a while back that the Gracies probably never imagined that the UFC would lead to MMA instead of just everybody taking BJJ. Do you think that a style of fighting has developed from these events?

IMO the answer is yes. The reason is that MMA is not simply just putting together Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, and BJJ. It seems to me that when you have to consider all the ranges presented in these arts together each art is changed. For example, when you're concerned about wrestling takedowns your standup game is different just as your grappling and ground game is different when strikes are present. The result is a truly complete style of fighting. Another question might be whether MMA are more like a "do" or "way of life" or a "jitsu" meaning simply an art or collection of techniques.

[koto_ryu]

I remember someone made a comment a while back that the Gracies probably never imagined that the UFC would lead to MMA instead of just everybody taking BJJ. Do you think that a style of fighting has developed from these events?

That just really led to the rebirth of MMA, martial artists in the feudal days would train in several martial art styles as they knew no one was invincible. Look at samurai for instance: they trained in swords, archery, polearms, daggers, jujitsu, fighting from horseback, firearms, etc. MMA is nothing new.

[aseepish]

Nope.

We have to differentiate between MMA (sport) and mixed martial arts (warrior arts) as Koto-ryu said.

While I agree that MMA is more than just taking Muay Thai and BJJ, I think that different styles of MMA come from the fact that training methods reflect the rules of competition. Shoot, BJJ (Vale Tudo), and Sambo are all examples of MMA styles, but each has a different approach as each form of competition has different rules. If you study MMA, do you end up fighting like Wanderlei Silva, Renzo Gracie or Mark Kerr?

For the warrior arts, there are numerous examples of mixed martial arts - Pencak Silat Mande Muda, Lameco Eskrima, Hapkido, Combat Sambo, Kajukenbo.

I agree that being able to fight in all ranges is vital, but I don't want to start talking about JKD, especially in the context of "style".

Cheers,

T.

[HtTKar]

“In China an even in our own country, those who have put this Way into practice have traditionally been spoken of as masters of the martial arts. As a warrior, one should necessarily study this practice. These days, the men making their way through the world calling themselves martial artists are generally only teachers of sword techniques. …
Since times past, among the various achievements and arts, there has been something called “the method of gaining the advantage”; but while it may be spoken of throughout the arts, swordsmanship should not be limited to this proposition alone. Swordsmanship is difficult to know simply by the advantage gained from it generally. Nor, of course, is it at all suitable to the laws of warfare.
When you look at the world, the various arts have been tailored to be items for sale. Likewise, a person thinks of himself as something to be sold and even the implements of these Ways are proffered as merchandise. This mentality divides the flower and fruit into two, and makes much less of the fruit than the flower. In this Way of the Martial Arts, especially, form is made into ornament, the flower is forced into bloom and technique is made into display; one talks of this of that dojo, teaching this Way or that Way, in an attempt to gain some benefit. Someone has said that “the immature martial art is a source of great injury,” and this is certainly the truth. “

Miyamoto Musashi

Sorry for the long quote. But it shows that concentrating on one aspect of a martial art is something that happened recently. This quote is from ~1643. Recently people have been choosing one "style" over another in in an attempt to gain an advantage over other styles, and it is a good marketing technique. I also think there's a difference between JKD and MMA. JKD seems to take parts of each martial art to make 1. MMA masters each art. I may be wrong here...just my opinion.

[HtTKar]

JKD...doesn't concern itself so much with the techniques of other styles as it does the training methods that best suit the individual's needs.

Thank you.
Makes sense, and master was kind of a strong word to use. I get it now I think. Please tell me if I am again wrong . JKD is without form. Emptiness I guess would be the word. So that without knowing the forms of other styles and such, you practice what works out best for you along the basic principles of martial arts. This way you are do not gain bad habits by learning styles. Rather you learn what works, and what doesn't by actual combat. No style to limit your movements.

Whereas MMA is along the lines of "OK I know boxing...now I need some grappling...got that..Now some MT kicks...OK lets compete to see what else I need." Whereas they use competition to determine what styles they need to better themselves.

Now if this is true, can JKD be learned properly without competition? It would seem to me that the only way to truly adapt to those basic martial arts principles without using someone elses set style is through a no-holds barred/UFC style competition.

[ryangruhn]

A dog can be half Rottweiler and half Akita but it is still a dog. As JKD can have Western Boxing, Werestling, Wing Chun, etc. but it still remains a MMA. That said I think there are two levels of description. The species Dog/MMA and the breed/styles within. But at the same time all species of the dog evolved from one genetic chain of Canines so the same relation can be made that all martial arts evolved from “fighting .” As we now see with mixed breeds in the dog world; martial arts is now coming back to fighting. A full circle if you will . . . . .


Gruhn

[badkarma]

Here's an article that may help in the decision of yes or no and it may cause some debate. It's worth reading...


What is Mixed Martial Arts?
Andrew Green
Innovative Martial Arts

http://innovativema.com/

Well, it is a name, and nothing more. As soon as you start trying to define it into a “style” you have missed the point entirely. It is not about following a specific style, or a specific instructor. It is about training the individual to be the best they can be, as an individual.

In MMA the objective is not to look a certain way, or rely on certain techniques, it is not about memorizing terms or repeating “forms”, no what it is about is improvement and performance in a live environment. There is no list of techniques, no terms to remember, no testing, instead there is just hard work, sweat and experimental learning.

We don’t wear rank, we don’t even have rank, it just isn’t necessary, or even compatible with what we do. Rank gives a hierarchy, it tells you who gets to tell who they are right or wrong in what they are doing. This is not the way we feel progress can be made, how can you work as a team when you have such a visible hierarchy? Why can’t that white belt (that happens to have several years wrestling) contribute to the black belts understanding of takedowns?

When you train with people regularly you learn very quickly who is capable of what, what strengths / weaknesses each person has, and who can help you get better at different things. 2 minutes of sparring can tell you far more about a persons skill then a coloured belt and stack of certificates ever could.

So what is it we do?

Well, we train, we learn, and we sweat. Instead of asking ourselves what techniques we need to memorize to get the next belt, we ask ourselves what we need to work on to improve ourselves, not in the eyes of a examiner, but on the mats, in practice, not in theory.

We do this by constantly reassessing what we are doing, why we are doing it and how we can do it better. There is no 100 year old curriculum handed down from some old master on the other side of the world that has never been critically examined since. We wouldn’t accept that in an applied science class, and Martial Arts training is an applied science.

We don’t progress according to a checklist and when an examiner says we do, we progress based on our own development and our own effort. There is a range of skill levels, you can think of it as a long line if you like. Everyone starts at a different point, and not everyone can reach the same point along that line. What is important is that as we train we move up that line, and keep moving up it. There are no preset roadmarks along the way, there can’t be. Not without discouraging some and limiting the rest. We can’t put speed limits on progress, and that is exactly what a belt system with time restricted / based testing does.

We don’t limit ourselves to what has been done, instead we are interested in what could be done. We are constantly looking for better ways, if we find a problem in what we are doing we work to fix it, not ignore as “Not a part of our style”. Science was stuck in the dark ages for a long time because of this sort of thinking, and the Martial Arts should not repeat that mistake. Aristotle was brilliant, but his work has been improved on by many generations of scientists. Many of the old masters where undoubtedly brilliant martial artists as well, and their work has been improved on as well.

One of the biggest concerns many who do not know much about MMA has is often safety, and how hard it is on the body, that it is only for young athletic people. But this is simply not true. What we do is about moving forward and finding better ways to do things. This is in all aspects of training, including staying healthy and not getting hurt. We do not restrict ourselves to sports training methods from 100 years ago, instead we look to modern sports science for training methods and healthy training practices.

MMA training can be perfectly safe, and it can also be taken to a competitive level and into rings. But so can any other sport. Karate has bare knuckle full contact competitions, Tae Kwon Do goes full contact in competitions, Kung fu is the same. You can start with flag football and go all the way to the NFL too. Not everyone is capable of competing at the top level, in fact most people would get hurt if they tried, but this is the same in any sport. But everyone is capable of training, learning, exercising and having fun in a very safe environment.

The other objection many have is with the restrictions of competitions. No multiple attackers, no weapons, etc. But that is competition, not training. All of those things can be brought into the gym and experimented on. Playing basketball is not restricted to 5 on 5. Games get played all over the world with different numbers, uneven numbers, only one net, etc. MMA training is no different, just because it isn’t a part of competition does not mean we are somehow magically prevented from doing it in training.

The last objection I want to look at is the “mental” aspect of training. Which again comes from those that are programmed into a certain way of thinking. If your doctor is not using herbs and leaches is he not practicing medicine? So why is it that if we aren’t talking about mystical energies we are not talking about mental training? Sports Psychology is a large field that goes into very great depth on mental training, has been subjected to tests and built upon those “traditional” methods.

The mental aspect of what we do is huge, in fact it is as important if not more so then the physical parts. It is the reason a much smaller, weaker person can consistently defeat larger, stronger, more aggressive ones. To say that it isn’t there is silly.

The other thing is as I have been explaining MMA is about growth and improvement. These things require critical thinking skills, without them they are impossible. What we do is not just mindlessly memorize and repeat patterns like drones, it is about constantly and critically evaluating everything we do.

I hope this helps to clear up some of the questions out there on what exactly it is MMA is about, and what we do. We are plagued by more myths and misconceptions then truths it sometimes seems.

Copyright ©2004 Andrew Green
__________________

[Tant01]

Interesting thread, if I may, I was waiting to read something like Koto-ryu's post. If a "style" is geared toward competition, it's a sport. Nothing wrong with that. However if a martial art is an efficient method of slaughtering many enemies then a mixed martial art would (hopefully) be to prepare one for the tactics and techniques of other martial artists. In the words of Darwin; "Tis not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."

Thanks for the read...


Ray

[Cobra_nVidia]

Yes, mixing martial arts creates styles. MMA is, by the name, a concept, not a style. Karate was a style. It mixed Fukien White Crane, Arhat Boxing, Jigen-Ryu Ji-Jutsu, and Okinawan Ti (Te, Primarily Grappling and Weaponry) to create Toudi - what most people call Karate. What's so special about that? Nothing. I just study the history, so I know arts mix.

I would actually argue FOR MMA, even though I consider myself a Karate-Ka, and a Budo-ka. This is because a Judo instructor can teach throws, chokes, and most aspects of grappling better than I can, and why would I want to teach all that stuff? At the same time, the way I strike is usually quite difficult for Judo-Ka to deal with. Granted, most street-fighters and boxers will never present the same challenge, but it's at least good to know.

Is MMA a way of life? That depends on how you use it.

[Tant01]

....

This is because a Judo instructor can teach throws, chokes, and most aspects of grappling better than I can, and why would I want to teach all that stuff? At the same time, the way I strike is usually quite difficult for Judo-Ka to deal with. Granted, most street-fighters and boxers will never present the same challenge, but it's at least good to know.

......
.

This is interesting, I have no doubt you have made Karate-do your way of life and it obviously works for you but as an amateur Judo player I would rather face a Karate-Ka than a decent boxer... You see, as a student of the judo waza I learned some throws but like your karate MY Judo also included other things, a "judo" stick (yawara), cane and edged weapon and firearm retention and disarm training... Maybe it's not really Judo at all but the essence is the same. Maximizing efficiency. I've been pushed aside as a "rogue" Judoka and ostracized by high-level players for my sanguinary style and rightly I should NOT even call it (what i do) "Judo". I would rather let gravity do the dirty work than my blade or a blunt weapon. But then I'd rather hit someone over the head with a handgun than shoot them too. It's just that I hate "Olympic" style Judo. It does NOT reflect what Kano had in mind for the real Judo... Te waza (in my warped judo way of thinking) is any technique that involves using your hands...Be it a double leg takedown or some ancient tsukiwaza. Man is a tool user, to limit one to his empty hands alone seems opposed to any form of (real) combat. IMHO That's not to say that our structure and apendages aren't formidable weapons in their own right but how easily they can be deanimated with a decent tool. (or bullet) MMA is still "art" it's still "SPORT" and the word "Martial" should be dropped entirely. Unless they intend to kill many enemies with it...What does it have to do with this god "Mars" and (actual) warfare? Nothing. Oh wait, I forgot Navy SEALs study some of that stuff

Respectfully yours. Raymond G.

[medic06]

Well put, Tant.

Another case of people making a thing more complicated (or important) than it really is...

Mike,

you just summed up one the biggest problems in MA in one sentence. Glad to know I'm not alone in this mode of thinking.

[CKD]

I would say that mma is somewhat its own fighting style. Although wrestling, mauy thai, and bjj typically are the bases that make up mma they are still dramatically changed for the mma game. For example if you have the BJJ master text and look at the sport sectons and the vale tudo sections you will see a big difference. Somply training in muay thai and bjj seperately and entering the ring is not going to go anymore siince these arts are both changed greatly for the mma game. For example if you take an mma gym like the Straight Blast Gym and check out a video that shows striking and then you check out a video that shows striking that is straight muay thai you will notice a difference. Same if you get a wrestling video and an mma takedown tape you will notice a big difference. I remember Tito who has only wrestled in high school fought a olympic skilled wrestler in an mma match and was able to take him down. But if that match was pure wrestling then Ortiz would be screwed. Thats why most fighters today are starting to train at mma gyms like SBG, Erik Paulson, Team Quest, ect. instead of learning it seperately.

[fenwick99]

Jkd as an mma?

Given the fact that many of the well-known Lee students and Inosanto students have studied extensively with LeBell, the Gracies, the Machados, and the shoot guys from Japan, it seems as tho' jkd and mma are at least first cousins. Bl himself remained very Wing Chun oriented, in principle even as he sloughed off WC techniques and ftwork.
Needless to say, Wing Chun does not figure much into mma

[MuayThaiFighter]

Well, it is a name, and nothing more. As soon as you start trying to define it into a “style” you have missed the point entirely. It is not about following a specific style, or a specific instructor. It is about training the individual to be the best they can be, as an individual.

I do Pankration which is considered an MMA.

A name and nothing more!!!!!!! To me it's more then just a name it's an art I love and believe to be more realistic then other arts.It's not like your plain,boring,useless arts like karate,tkd,kung fu,wing chun etc. I however agree that it shouldn't be defined as a style, but a combination of styles since there is no limit to what MMA students learn.

In MMA the objective is not to look a certain way, or rely on certain techniques, it is not about memorizing terms or repeating “forms”, no what it is about is improvement and performance in a live environment. There is no list of techniques, no terms to remember, no testing, instead there is just hard work, sweat and experimental learning.

Somewhat true. We still have to know the name of the techniques we do.No testing!!!!!!!!! since when ? We still test,just not the same as you would in a karate school.

In my school we get tested on our technique,foot work,how fast we can punch and kick,power,and how well we sparr against someone with same or more experience.

We don’t wear rank, we don’t even have rank, it just isn’t necessary, or even compatible with what we do. Rank gives a hierarchy, it tells you who gets to tell who they are right or wrong in what they are doing. This is not the way we feel progress can be made, how can you work as a team when you have such a visible hierarchy? Why can’t that white belt (that happens to have several years wrestling) contribute to the black belts understanding of takedowns?

We don't have belts but we still have a rank system we wear different coloured school t-shirts for each level.Our ranks system is not about how to put techniques in any specific order since we don't do katas,just like any other MMA.

A white shirt person in our school is not expected to really know much about fighting unless he has taken other realistic arts before coming to our school such as bbj,submission wrestling,muay thai,boxing and is able to offer some techniques, techniques he may know that no one else in our school does,as we are about always learning new things,improvement and becoming better fighters.However by the time we reach 3rd level(orange shirt-we cannot go any further in rack unless we can prove to be just as good a fighter as any black belt of another style),after all we're all about fighting and getting straight to the point no bullshit,and no wasting time with katas.So despite rank we do more then just move up in level.There are people of lower levels that can take on some of higher levels in our school but we are compared to how well we do fighting against other schools more then against people of lower levels in our own school.What we learn has been proven to work both in and out of the ring.We see ourselves more as trained street fighters then martial artists.


When you train with people regularly you learn very quickly who is capable of what, what strengths / weaknesses each person has, and who can help you get better at different things. 2 minutes of sparring can tell you far more about a persons skill then a coloured belt and stack of certificates ever could.
If your school thinks only 2 minutes can tell you how far a person's skill is then I'd hate to train at your school,because obviously you guys don't train very well and probably have shitty fighters.

So what is it we do?

Ya that's exactly what I'd like to know.

Well, we train, we learn, and we sweat. Instead of asking ourselves what techniques we need to memorize to get the next belt, we ask ourselves what we need to work on to improve ourselves, not in the eyes of a examiner, but on the mats, in practice, not in theory.

Well what are you training and sweating for and even learning if you can tell in only 2 minutes how good a person is?Obviously you can't.

We ask ourselves what we need to work on too but doesn't mean we don't have someone with more knowledge that examines us.Do you guys not try and learn from those with more experience ? If not how do you get any further then you are or improve,training on it's own doesn't get you anywhere.If it does why even join a school ?

Just because you fight on the mats doesn't mean you shouldn't be examined ever.

We do this by constantly reassessing what we are doing, why we are doing it and how we can do it better. There is no 100 year old curriculum handed down from some old master on the other side of the world that has never been critically examined since. We wouldn’t accept that in an applied science class, and Martial Arts training is an applied science.


I agree with you on this,we're the same way.

We don’t progress according to a checklist and when an examiner says we do, we progress based on our own development and our own effort. There is a range of skill levels, you can think of it as a long line if you like. Everyone starts at a different point, and not everyone can reach the same point along that line. What is important is that as we train we move up that line, and keep moving up it. There are no preset roadmarks along the way, there can’t be. Not without discouraging some and limiting the rest. We can’t put speed limits on progress, and that is exactly what a belt system with time restricted / based testing does.

So are you saying you guys don't have an instructor or that your instructor just doesn't give a crap whether you guys improve or not?

Without an examiner how exactly does one improve his techniques and skill ?

We all as humans learn something from someone,that's a part of life.


We don’t limit ourselves to what has been done, instead we are interested in what could be done. We are constantly looking for better ways, if we find a problem in what we are doing we work to fix it, not ignore as “Not a part of our style”. Science was stuck in the dark ages for a long time because of this sort of thinking, and the Martial Arts should not repeat that mistake. Aristotle was brilliant, but his work has been improved on by many generations of scientists. Many of the old masters where undoubtedly brilliant martial artists as well, and their work has been improved on as well.

Well we don't limit ourselves to what has been done and we aren't interested in what "could be done" but what does work at the present moment.In our school there is no such thing as could or would have,it's now not about what coud be done.We work to fix any problem we have as well and sometimes we even learn something that worked during sparring match just by accident.

Well as long as arts like karate,kung fu,and tkd etc. exist martial arts will continue to repeat mistakes.It's just a matter of time before these arts become nonexistance due to the world of MMA,as people smarten up and decide to go towards MMA,old Asian Traditional arts will lose alot of people in training the old ways and will disappear.


One of the biggest concerns many who do not know much about MMA has is often safety, and how hard it is on the body, that it is only for young athletic people. But this is simply not true. What we do is about moving forward and finding better ways to do things. This is in all aspects of training, including staying healthy and not getting hurt. We do not restrict ourselves to sports training methods from 100 years ago, instead we look to modern sports science for training methods and healthy training practices.

I agree 100% here.I'm almost 36 and I still train in MMA and haven't stopped competeing yet.


Thank God MMA doesn't restrict training methods from a 100yrs.ago and that we have instead evolved into something much better and more realistic.

MMA training can be perfectly safe, and it can also be taken to a competitive level and into rings. But so can any other sport. Karate has bare knuckle full contact competitions, Tae Kwon Do goes full contact in competitions, Kung fu is the same. You can start with flag football and go all the way to the NFL too. Not everyone is capable of competing at the top level, in fact most people would get hurt if they tried, but this is the same in any sport. But everyone is capable of training, learning, exercising and having fun in a very safe environment.

Wrong,I did karate,they don't fight bare knuckle and most fight point sparring not full contact,and some do go into semi-contact,which still isn't full contact.Tkd and Kung Fu are the same way.


The other objection many have is with the restrictions of competitions. No multiple attackers, no weapons, etc. But that is competition, not training. All of those things can be brought into the gym and experimented on. Playing basketball is not restricted to 5 on 5. Games get played all over the world with different numbers, uneven numbers, only one net, etc. MMA training is no different, just because it isn’t a part of competition does not mean we are somehow magically prevented from doing it in training.

hhhhhhmmmmmmm,interesting considering that most people who train in MMA do compete,main reason many martial artists eventually lean towards MMA.People like myself who join MMA usually join to fight full contact and are sick of the beating around the bush with kata stuff.

The last objection I want to look at is the “mental” aspect of training. Which again comes from those that are programmed into a certain way of thinking. If your doctor is not using herbs and leaches is he not practicing medicine? So why is it that if we aren’t talking about mystical energies we are not talking about mental training? Sports Psychology is a large field that goes into very great depth on mental training, has been subjected to tests and built upon those “traditional” methods.

Good point and I agree with this 100%

The mental aspect of what we do is huge, in fact it is as important if not more so then the physical parts. It is the reason a much smaller, weaker person can consistently defeat larger, stronger, more aggressive ones. To say that it isn’t there is silly.

Once again I agree.

The other thing is as I have been explaining MMA is about growth and improvement. These things require critical thinking skills, without them they are impossible. What we do is not just mindlessly memorize and repeat patterns like drones, it is about constantly and critically evaluating everything we do.

I agree, however do we not always go back to the basics even when learning new moves ? Is this not considered memorizing moves? We do this so we remember it and it sticks in our mind and so when sparring everything happens automatically,of course we are still always learning new things.Martial Arts is about physical and mental memory.If your school doesn't have either one it's missing something.


I hope this helps to clear up some of the questions out there on what exactly it is MMA is about, and what we do. We are plagued by more myths and misconceptions then truths it sometimes seems.

I think you,yourself need a better understanding about MMA before trying to explain it to other people.

Either way good luck with your training.