Comments regarding arguments against BJJ

[CKD]

[QUOTE=shamster]Strength helps in anything you do almost. Even in shooting a gun at times. A person who is stronger can use that as an advantage in BJJ too. However, bjj makes use of positioning and leverage more so than pure striking. To say that striking uses the same amount of positioning and leverage would be foolish, and anyone who says that has no idea about either aspect of fighting. BTW, Vitor Belfort is not a weak person. And he is a better striker than Tank.
QUOTE]
Yes Vitor is strong. But is he as big or strong as Tank? Thank you for proving my point. What does Belfort being a better striker have to do with anything? That was the point that a more technical striker can take on someone bigger. I don't expeect a less experience and weaker BJJ guy to beat a stronger and more technical fighter either. I would say a bit more but it seems the other posters are covering it.

[shamster]

You obviously need to watch more boxing

About most of your comments, I won't repeat what's already been said. However, I was almost laughing when I read this above comment. I've been watching pro boxing ever since I was a little kid. Boxing is actually the only reason I haven't cancelled my HBO subscription. So to think that clinches don't happen A LOT in pro boxing fights is actually a sure sign that whoever says this ISN'T a boxing fan.

[shamster]

Yes Vitor is strong. But is he as big or strong as Tank? Thank you for proving my point. What does Belfort being a better striker have to do with anything? That was the point that a more technical striker can take on someone bigger. I don't expeect a less experience and weaker BJJ guy to beat a stronger and more technical fighter either. I would say a bit more but it seems the other posters are covering it.

Let's also keep in mind that you are talking about top level strikers. You really expect average fighters to be able to stay on their feet against even an average grappler? One of my original points was that I believe assuming equal skill levels, it's easier for a grappler to take down a striker than it is for a striker to keep a grappler on his feet.

Also, to the poster(s) who mention that many fights end with a quick sucker punch. That may be true, but this is not the context of the fight I was talking about. To sucker punch someone requires very little skill. Just some good timing and aggression. And the victim of a sucker punch wouldn't be "on guard" anyway, so this would automatically make ineffective any training he has. Whatever your style of fighting is, you have to at least be ready to fight (or at least recover) to be effective at all. So while I can certainly agree that many fights do end this quickly, these are often the kinds of fights that no amounts of martial arts training can really prepare you for.

By the way, being able to handle multiple attackers is not something that can be done effectively without weapons, unless you are incredibly fast and strong, and the attackers are pretty bad at whatever they do. If a big guy bear hugged you while another one or two of his friends are bum rushing you with strikes, how many people can get out of this situation without getting hurt?

[koto_ryu]

A LOT in pro boxing fights is actually a sure sign that whoever says this ISN'T a boxing fan.

Considering I've been boxing for 14 years and have seen many many pro bouts (it's like fishing shows, can't get past them without stopping to watch the whole thing) and fought my fair share, not to mention being a boxing historian and working on a book about bare-knuckle boxing, I think I may know what I'm talking about.

Modern boxers nowadays don't wrestle nearly as much as they did back then, and while they did a lot of clinching back then, it was all for the knockout as the round ended when an opponet hit the deck. You'll see many fights where fighters don't even try for the clinch (last time Oscar fought Sugar Shane and got boogered by a bad panel, I don't recall them clinching at all or if they did, less than two or three times) and where they will only get in a clinch or two. Most amateur bouts have much more clinching as they get fatigued more, but pro matches especially have a lot less.

[koto_ryu]

Let's also keep in mind that you are talking about top level strikers. You really expect average fighters to be able to stay on their feet against even an average grappler? One of my original points was that I believe assuming equal skill levels, it's easier for a grappler to take down a striker than it is for a striker to keep a grappler on his feet.

We're not saying grappling is useless, we're just saying grappling is not the supreme answer to self-defense. I prefer to get off the ground and on my feet as quickly as possible in any kind of real-time situation and that's about the most grappling skills I use on a daily basis, to get them off of me so I can stand up and strike them.

By the way, being able to handle multiple attackers is not something that can be done effectively without weapons, unless you are incredibly fast and strong, and the attackers are pretty bad at whatever they do. If a big guy bear hugged you while another one or two of his friends are bum rushing you with strikes, how many people can get out of this situation without getting hurt?

While difficult, it is very possible. Bear hugs are pretty easy to get out of, big guy or not, and while it's doubtful you'll be winning any multiple attacker fights anytime soon, you can definitely get away with little injury. I fall back to my jujitsu and ninjutsu for multiple attackers, striking when I can. The best strategy to do is get one of your opponents in the way of the other attackers, they're less likely to pop their buddy and hesitate more often, simple psychology, nothing fancy.

After you get them to the ground, of course, thats when you throw the smoke bomb, turn into the tengu, and fly away in true ninja fashion

[shamster]

Well, I guess it's gonna have to come down to personal preference. Just like I won't be convinced striking is necessarily the best solution, you won't be convinced that grappling is either. To me, getting a takedown is still a lot easier than landing good knockout punches. Plus, if fighting an untrained person, I would say most people have natural reflexes that help them deal with a punch, whether it is blocking or ducking. Most people are less prepared to deal with an effective grappler. I am most likely never going to fight one of the top NHB fighters. It is more likely for myself and most others to get in a fight with someone who is an untrained tough guy. Grab any random person on the street, and most will at least be able to swing punches. They are probably bad at it, but they can still improvise their way through a fist fight. However, most of those same people would not know how to grapple at all. Just like running vs. swimming. More people know how to run than swim. Throw a runner into the water and they won't know what to do. That's the way I look at it. Forget the nhb competitors for the sake of this argument. We can assume those guys cross train a good amount, and can take a fight in any environment.

I still see a crapload of clinching going on in pro boxing fights. In fact, I used to watch matches with my dad all the time, and it used to frustrate him to no end. He used to comment all the time that they should deduct points for clinching (he would prefer to see a pure punching match).

As for multiple attackers, I think the ideas behind dealing with them work better in theory than in reality. If you are grabbed, you may be able to get out of them, but it would still take you at least a few seconds if the guy has a good grip on you. During those few seconds, it wouldn't be very hard for his buddies to grab your legs, and beat the crap out of you. To me, assuming the ability to handle multiple attackers is a dangerous game to play.

[HtTKar]

I found this link in an old thread.

http://www.sublimedirectory.com/bas...media/kimbo.wmv

Do you still believe that people are worried about hurting their hands while striking? I personally dont think that either of these two are thinking about how bad their hands hurt. In fact neither of their hands look damaged at all.

[CKD]

Let's also keep in mind that you are talking about top level strikers. You really expect average fighters to be able to stay on their feet against even an average grappler? One of my original points was that I believe assuming equal skill levels, it's easier for a grappler to take down a striker than it is for a striker to keep a grappler on his feet.

Never said an average striker could take on the average grappler. Chances are the grappler will take him down even if his takedowns are weak.

[IPON]

Well, I guess it's gonna have to come down to personal preference.

Dude, that was my original point. I was trying to save you from getting arthritis. As long as you are open about the strengths and weakness of your style and can compensate when needed who cares.

I am very much a grappler and I can strike well, however my first line of attack is to strike if nothing more that to set-up the grappling. As a bouncer grappling is definitely the best, collapse the trachea or a solid arm bar with the patron kissing the floor......there usually is no need to go further.

To clarify:

Boxing clinching. I think the difference is that in boxing the clinch occurs strategically and is not a natural progression as perhaps in a regular fight. The boxer is fatigues, frustrated or is trying for dirty shots.

Ground fighting: Starts when both combatants are on the ground. If I throw and opponent and lock the arm while he is on the ground and I and stand that is not ground fighting. Now, in the same scenario instead of standing I perform Jujigatme on the opponent I am now ground fighting. Ground fighting is an aspect of grappling.

Early UFC: there was not a shift to BJJ because of the rhetoric presented by Rorion “all fights go to the ground” I am a grappler I would expect all fight to have at least on person on the ground. The reason for the shift was Royce’ domination. To be the man you have to beat the man and start by beating him at his own game much the same way that Arnold was single handedly responsible for the steroid explosion in body building. However, I can assure you that if Royce met with Yarborough (650 lbs sumo) instead of Hackey I definitely think there would be a different outcome. Also, everyone needs to be realistic when watching the UFC and especially matches with Royce. Please remember his chief complaint was about time he wanted more time in the matches so he could wear down his opponents. That is fin for the ring but not for the street fights don’t last long. Royce got beat up a lot by strikers and had only the ring to save him. Don’t forget Royce had the towel thrown in (I believe after the first fight with kimo, don’t quote me though)

Remember Grappling is not for everyone and it really is not easy. It requires more technical sophistication as compared to striking as it is tactile.

BJJ Haters: Well I do think there are haters. But also keep in mind that a lot of people are basically just starting to wake up from all BJJ hype and realize there are gaps, its not the ultimate style, very little if anything was created by the Gracies as it was pre war Judo, 65years undefeated was a lie, a blue or purple belt could beat a BB in any other style, etc. That does not distract from the accomplishments of Helio or the Gracie clan or any of BJJ, but that is simply the truth.

Again, if you like ground fighting and BJJ …. fine stay with it. But what you are doing (intentional or unintentional) is creating the 100,000,000ith “BJJ IS THE BEST” thread. And you are using some weak arguments especially regarding striking, Vitor is a BB in BJJ but prefers striking, Royce studies HKD to learn striking and kicking, Renzo has MT classes at his dojo. Everyone in BJJ cross trains because the atemi waza is so weak in BJJ....just the truth. My point is that if the lead practitioners of the style find striking useful, I find it interesting that you cannot see that as well. I also find it very limiting that you do not seem to understand how to set-up an opponent with a strike or kick as you will not always be able to shoot. But again, are you looking for truth or do you simply wish to be correct. If so, I guess this is all a Sham

[IPON]

If you're talking about effective street fighting, stop with the half-measures and pomp. Buy a gun and go to Thunder Ranch.

Mike, remember not every state allows carrying permits, NY does not. Also, just like the use of techniques one has to have the heart to pull the trigger.

This debate is not really about what style works best. It's all about what people like best. It's what you get your thrills training, and what you feel most comfortable with in your every day lives.

Exactly my point as well. Enjoy your style and train hard, but at the same time be open and realistic about it as these techniques may prevent injury or death.

[koto_ryu]

Take a good grappler and give him basic striking skills, and you have someone like Frank Shamrock.

Actually Frank's a pretty vicious striker in his own right. Ever see his first K-1 fight? Broke the guy's arm with a kick in 43 seconds.

[koto_ryu]

Most people are less prepared to deal with an effective grappler.

Think about all the people that wrestle in high school and how much more common that is than any martial art. They'll definitely have some knowledge of dealing with grapplers and ways of doing things. Besides, if your opponent is especially strong or large, he can toss you around like nobody's business if you try to grapple with him. I've seen a bouncer toss a judoka around like a rag doll for a good five minutes before dragging him outside, bouncing him off a parked car, and kicking his ass into the street. This guy was very good at judo too, he just didn't have the power nor dirty tricks Big Tom had. You might think BJJ is going to help you win, and in fact it might. But what's to prevent him from slamming you in the nuts when you take him in your guard? If you try to triangle choke him, whats to prevent him from biting deep into your thigh and tearing out a good-sized chunk of flesh? Not to mention if you go for the shoot immediately, he might decide to pull that knife he had hidden and give you a few inches of steel right through your ribcage.

As for multiple attackers, I think the ideas behind dealing with them work better in theory than in reality. If you are grabbed, you may be able to get out of them, but it would still take you at least a few seconds if the guy has a good grip on you. During those few seconds, it wouldn't be very hard for his buddies to grab your legs, and beat the crap out of you. To me, assuming the ability to handle multiple attackers is a dangerous game to play.

I'd rather be confident I can at least put some hurt on multiple attackers while getting my ass kicked rather than curl up and admit "OK, there's too many, I'll just lay here like a fish and get my ass handed to me."

[Tant01]

[QUOTE=shamster]

....So I may not be the most well trained person at striking, but what I am is a thinker and realist. I do not fool myself into thinking that striking is something that is the most effective for an average martial artist. And as much of a bjj fan I am, I also do not fool myself with that either. I know there are some weaknesses... Just that I don't agree with the all weaknesses mentioned here in the past.

QUOTE]


Freedom to believe as we see fit does not make what we believe the reality.
The weaknesses are there and they are real. BJJ/GJJ is not really Ju-Jitsu at all, it's Judo Newaza. So either it's Jujitsu, or it's not. Can you tell me the name of a traditional Bujutsu ryu-ha that it came from? No, you don't have one.

If it were a traditional ju-jitsu style it would include weapons because that is what ju jitsu was for. I'll take tanto-jitsu over Brazilian Judo any day! Bjj is fun and and highly competitive but it's not a real MARTIAL art either, is it?


Highly recomended (by me ) reading; http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/judo.html

"There is no technique in BJJ that can not be found in traditional kodokan judo"

Mark Tripp (6th dan Kodokan Judo, 8 dan Ju-Jitsu)

So you don't need to take MY word on it!

[EmptyneSs]

bjj is just kosen judo isnt it?

[IPON]

Bjj is fun and and highly competitive but it's not a real MARTIAL art either, is it?

I agree with he essence of your post but I think it is equally unfair to say BJJ is not a MA. But I agree since I first saw BJJ in the early UFCs I always considered the more related to Judo the Jujutsu. It is interesting to note that Renzo even compared BJJ to JJJ and stated that all the dangerous techniques were taken out to make it safer for training. Ithought helio did thi or Jigoro please give credit where credit is due. Helio was a great fighter but he was no Jigoro Kano. If anyone does not understand what I mean please about how revelutionary and influential Jigoro Kano was.