How Sak keeps beating Gracies

[dan downard]

The way Gracies train is their downfall.
The so called secret to the Gracie training tech is the order they teach and the theory that all moves are like a chain and the order should never be broken.
Thats where they fail.Because they are taught that x move leads into y move and z follows y.
It becomes predictable.
Sak has studied the Gracie training techs that they refer to as Pure Water.
The idea of thinking three moves ahead of your opponant is made easy for Sak by the way they train.
Thats also why they do so poorly against Machado students at turnys.
But,Rorion doesnt cry about them not teaching in the pure water style.(Cause they consistantly beat them).

..........JMHO............

[duchman]

IGOR!! train like a trenobil-man

[david a]

Thanks Dan,

I only posted about the same topic 4 hours earlier.
Then again, not many replies on mine either...

[Ronin]

So in other words...

...they have too much faith in their system, and not enough respect for their opponents.

They also need to learn to take down guys with more wrestling experience than a tomato-can.

Good post, Dan.

[Ryu (non-working password]

Ronin, are you enjoying your Christmas vacation?

How are the final grades? Did you recieve them yet?

Ryu

[dan downard]

Sorry Dave.I guess I should have read through the posts .
Just something that I was thinking and threw it out there.
I got a flyer from the Gracies today and it had a referance to the secret Gracie training tech.This is where they get the Pure Water thing from.They believe that it has to be taught in this way only ,to make the (system) work.We all know the moves work.But anytime you make it a system,you basicly create patterns to learn by.Forms.
These forms then become your forms.And like any form,it is predictable.
Don't get me wrong.I do think that there are x number of possable moves from y position and one leads to a better position for another and so on .
But Sak has found a chink in the way Gracies are taught to take the back,and their inability to fight standing.
The link from one sub to another is always transitional.
So if you know what his options are ,you can cut him off before he gets there.Sak is very good at timing those transitional moves.He is able to catch you in between when you are most vulnerable.
I call that some good chess.

[guardman]

Originally posted by dan downard
Sorry Dave.I guess I should have read through the posts .
Just something that I was thinking and threw it out there.
I got a flyer from the Gracies today and it had a referance to the secret Gracie training tech.This is where they get the Pure Water thing from.They believe that it has to be taught in this way only ,to make the (system) work.We all know the moves work.But anytime you make it a system,you basicly create patterns to learn by.Forms.
These forms then become your forms.And like any form,it is predictable.
Don't get me wrong.I do think that there are x number of possable moves from y position and one leads to a better position for another and so on .
But Sak has found a chink in the way Gracies are taught to take the back,and their inability to fight standing.
The link from one sub to another is always transitional.
So if you know what his options are ,you can cut him off before he gets there.Sak is very good at timing those transitional moves.He is able to catch you in between when you are most vulnerable.
I call that some good chess.

sak's key is the kimura he applies that same move from all positions. he's perfedted that move. he applies from the tutle postition, when he has his opponents back from the stand-up position from everywhere.

[guardman]

Originally posted by dan downard
The way Gracies train is their downfall.
The so called secret to the Gracie training tech is the order they teach and the theory that all moves are like a chain and the order should never be broken.
Thats where they fail.Because they are taught that x move leads into y move and z follows y.
It becomes predictable.
Sak has studied the Gracie training techs that they refer to as Pure Water.
The idea of thinking three moves ahead of your opponant is made easy for Sak by the way they train.
Thats also why they do so poorly against Machado students at turnys.
But,Rorion doesnt cry about them not teaching in the pure water style.(Cause they consistantly beat them).

..........JMHO............

sak has a killer kimura. he applies it from every position. he just knows moves that the gracies haven't figured out yet. his time is coming.

[bobby_steeles]

i think it's time for helio to dust off the speedos and come back with a vengeance!!

[Bau13]

How WOULD Helio do in a light weight tourney today...hmmm
be funny if he beat some guys..

[guardman]

Originally posted by bobby_steeles
i think it's time for helio to dust off the speedos and com
e back with a vengeance!!

sak has developed a new portion of his game that hasn't been figured out just yet. its a very technical portion of it "the kimura". the next person "Gracie"(who i think will be able to get him on his back)will defeat him. its a matter of time a gracie will do it. sak your time is up. gracies will be back. look out for ricarrdo alimeida he beat shoji in pride 12. he trains with renzo. he's a force to be reckoned with. watch him in the next tournaments to come. mark my words sak you will be placed on your back and your kimura will be defeated by a gracie.

[Ryu (non-working password]

GuardMaster,
are you a Gracie fan?

[Ryu (non-working password]

oops, Guardman,

I'm sorry

[Karlinhos]

sak's FIGURE-FOUR arm attacks...

yeah, it's something he's been using for a while. i just recently re-watched his fight with vernon tiger white (pride 2?) and he used it constantly against him. vernon also lasted quite a long time with him (into the 2nd round).

i don't think it's a question of a bjj guy needing to "figure out" the hold, it's used quite often in sport tournaments. i just think that one has to be aware of sak's constant use of it.

1) he locked it in against royler (although i think it was a premature stoppage), and i think he was mainly successful against royler because of his weight/strength advantage. he was not in a position to apply enough pressure to tap royler and i think that if he adjusted his position to apply more pressure, royler might have gotten out and away. royler probably wouldn't have won, but he may have lasted the duration.

2) he tried it against royce in the first few minutes of the fight and never got close after that.

3) obviously he got it against renzo.

4) and he didn't get it against an allegedly injured ryan.

so i'd say with all that in mind he was really only successful 1 out of 4 times. not the greatest percentage when you break it down like that.

maybe if someone got in there that was a good, agggressive puncher, could avoid submissions and could move well... that person might havve a chance. although he's on the small side, ralph gracie comes to mind.

the reason i mention ralph is because when he gets a good position, like the back, he lets his punches fly. but i fear that ralph may have the same problem that royler had, just not tall enough. he may not be sucessful at reaching sak to connect. other's (who can hit well) haven't gone in there to really daze or hurt sak with punches (vernon white).

vernon actually got one really good punch in his fight with sak, but didn't follow up. it was only after watching that fight that got me thinking that sak will probably only lose after being beaten down/dazed.

his figure-four is nothing "new". you just don't want to give sak too much of your arm or he'll go to lock it in. it's just like when you pass someone's guard, you want to keep your elbow down by his crotch. you don't want to leave your arm out there beyond that or it'll possibly get barred. when holding onto sak's torso you don't want to give him enough arm to let him wrap up your arm above the elbow (ala renzo). the location of the elbow is all important.

okay, i'll stop rambling...

TRAIN ON!

karl

[guardman]

Originally posted by Ryu (non-working password

GuardMaster,
are you a Gracie fan?

first i'd like to say what's up to everyone. secondly yes i am very much a gracie fan. and will always be. no one can ever dissuade me from that. i'm impressed by sak but know his time is up soon. look out for riccardo alimeida.