Krav Maga vs. other arts

[SamuraiGuy]

I think hes saying the seals are amazing without their guns, but in a MMA match they arent as good as professional MMA guys.

Sure the seal is a warrior, and the professional mma guy is an athlete.

MMA guys are also known as warriors alot, because what they do is fight. The thing is a seal might be a 9 at fighting, a 9 at shooting, a 9 at military tactics, a 9 at explosives and a 9 at flying a jet or something.

That seems like a pretty good thing to be. The best MMA guy's would be a ten at fighting, simply because they do it all the time, they dont have to worry about shooting , or bombs. Also they do alot more hand to hand combat then the seals do as well, so its not like the seals are getting any extra real world experience.

Put it on a road in a streetfight and the seal may have a better chance.

But in a MMA match, the MMA guy will kill the seal everytime, simply because its not what the seals focus all of their attention on.

As you said the seals are warriors, but warriors use guns nowadays, not hand to hand combat. Sure it may come up, but its maybe 1% of the real situation fighting a seal will ever see.

[BoarSpear]

so suddenly the sport guy is gonna kill the warrior? okay frank dux...i follow you now. i forgot that alot of Martial artist study with guys like MR miyagi and shit...gimmie a friggin break if you really believe seals cant fight take your ass down to gate #2 at Damn Neck and holler real loud how bad seals suck at fighting...and how any mma guy can kill them...Oh wait i get it, you mean in a fair fight! most warriors do take the time to study the martial arts (even if its thier own time) numbnuts...and thier instructors have likely taken a life with the technique, as opposed to getting someone to tap out on tv.
have you ever heard of Duncan Leung? or Paul Vunak? they are both quite dangerous men who trained...well golly gee the SEALs...maybe you heard of Michael Echanis? its true that you should never need your knife as a weapon... for after action mopping up maybe ...as a tool often. your hands SHOULD never be needed (because everything always goes so smoothly in combat ). to assume they dont train for a bad day at the office so to speak is silly. they know the weakest link in a chain is the one that will break so they train to minimize risk. When they train h2h it is against an armed opponent bent on killing them, not someone intent on submitting them. for a warrior loss means death or perhaps capture and torture. training to kill and training to fight in the ring are apples and oranges period.

[medic06]

Fair enough - to the original post, it probably wouldn't hold up very well against competitive styles in that format.



As for self defense generally, it seems to me that the people who come to our gym for 'self defense' are mostly in need of aggresion training, if I can coin a phrase.
I'm probably less experienced the many on this board, but I'd venture that winning 'street fights' usually comes down to the willingness to attack first, and technical ability second. It's the mindset that makes one a combatant or a victim. Am I wrong?

I would say so. Skill without the will is useless

[xkirian]

Boar and Samurai,

We are on the same page just a different paragraph .

Boar I am a DT Trainer, I have trained LEO's and Military all over the world and I do know better then to ever "doubt" a warrior. My point was simply, what Samurai said, the SEAL does not train to fight MMA, they train to fight and kill the bad guy. Different mission and focus. Those that train at a high level of MMA are phenomenal athletes, with a different mission and focus. One is not better then the other, one just does certain things better then the other.

Ask any SEAL how much H2H training they get and they will tell not enough, but it falls to the bottom of their KIT because they have different tools for their Mission. A SEAL is a SEAL and they are tough bastids... They will fight to the end.

FYI, I am very familiar with the individuals you referenced and I am an Instructor under Vunak w/ PFS, I didn't mention it because I'm not actively teaching JKD/PFS at the moment, but I digress. Frank C. is a former SEAL and he now trains MMA at the Lynnx Academy, ask him how he would have faired in cage, under those rules, before he started training MMA. He'll tell you not well. It's a different game, that's all.

A SEAL in a street fight is another story, you are correct it is the "singer not the song". I know some TKD guys that will knock you out just as soon as look at one. If seen some shit Krav and I've seen some great Krav, I've seen shit BJJ and great BJJ....I'm sure we can all say the same about Thai, Boxing, It's all about mind set, attitude and focus, what ever your game is.

The point all along was simply train for the scenario in which you want to apply your skills, i.e., the situation will not adapt to your style, you must adapt your style to the situation.

Kirian

[EmptyneSs]

xkirian u mistunderstood me i think. by training a ma as a sport, i dont really mean competing for the ring only. my definition of training ma as a sport means training it vs resisting opponents and pushing yourself hard. this is what muay thai and ju jitsu are all about, they are full contact and as realistic as possible while staying safe. and this is why they are effective.

also, u dont really seem to know much about bjj even though u claimed to have trained in it. if u did, would have at least known that most of the techniques in bjj are straight ju jitsu, or modified ju jitsu. and these techniques have a history dating back over 2000 years. ju jitsu was a war art, and included everything, not just hand to hand combat. it had all kinds of weapons as well.

heres a paragraph from an article about this topic

"Sport, by removing some of the potential dangers, achieves the opposite. That is, sport more typically produces natural, fast, reflexive movement with full power application, achieving a result against a struggling opponent who is also utilizing full power while engaging in strategic and tactical resistance using all of his or her resources and training. Techniques that don't work are soon abandoned, and successful skills are honed against different attackers under a variety of conditions. Maintaining control in various combat situations, both in attack and defense, is difficult when faced with the unpredictable nature of an opponent's efforts, but facing these situations in contest prepares you for similar situations. Each opponent in competition is operating at the limit of physical and psychological skill. By pushing that limit contestants are continually realizing and expanding their potential."

this was pretty much the entire reason kano refined ju jitsu and began training it "sport" style. judo was the result of this, and judo is extremely effective in competition and in real life. most law enforcement agents know some judo and ju jitsu, and use it to restrain people every day all over the world. just watch cops, and u will see them use ju jitsu holds all the time; wristlocks, choke holds, armlocks.


also, what u said about picking a fight with the hells angels was the dumbest comment i ever heard. the point of training is to not get into fights. unlike u, i dont train to brawl in poolhalls and bars.

[xkirian]

Empty.... I agree wholeheartedly with your 1st statement, but you don't understand what a "sport" is, so for your enlightenment as taken from the Webster Dictionary:

..."Sport- Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively:
- A particular form of this activity.
- An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
- An active pastime; recreation.".....

This topic was never about the effectiveness of Ju-Jitsu or Thai Boxing, etc, it was about whether Krav Maga was a good choice for MMA training, which I said it wasn't....now the topic it is about the sport model vs. street.

You don't get it, sport Ju-Jitsu and feudal era Ju-Jitsu are very different and feudal era Ju-Jitsu or any system, when you add a weapon into the mix things change...you are arguing my point for me. Again, Evolution is key.

I am very aware of my "martial" history and what your quoting has nothing what so ever to do with sport training. So you have been arguing for the sake of arguing, because if you train it for Self Defense and apply it in realistic scenarios then your training for the street, if not then good luck to you on when you need it. Keep on trucking home boy.

My statement regarding the Hells Angels was for impact, if you were training in reality then maybe the suggestion of it, would not take you out of your comfort zone. If your so confidant that the way you train works on the street, test your theory if not your just guessing arent you????

Skill without experience = Theory!

Kirian

[SamuraiGuy]

Ahoy, I have a question, Emptyness, you were saying that my Krav class sounded like a watered down BJJ/Muay Thai class.... well shit you yourself said BJJ is basically JJ so why the hell would you want to study Watered down JJ....

Knob...

oh and as for boar spear, you said I should go down and call out a navy seal.... well that would make sense, if I said I could beat up a navy seal... no I said in hand to hand combat in a MMA setting, the top MMA guys could beat up a navy seal.

Take it to the street, still unarmed combat (because thats what we are discussing, I realize knives could be pulled but we are comparing their unarmed combat so you cant bring knives into the equasion, or if you really want to for the total street thing we can just assume the MMA guy also has a knife) and I bet you a top MMA guy would beat a seal in the street or however you say, with no rules.


You telling me to go fight a navy seal, is like me telling you to go to pride and fight quinton rampage jackson.... its just stupid.

[BoarSpear]

Knob...

oh and as for boar spear, you said I should go down and call out a navy seal.... well that would make sense, if I said I could beat up a navy seal... no I said in hand to hand combat in a MMA setting, the top MMA guys could beat up a navy seal.

Take it to the street, still unarmed combat (because thats what we are discussing, I realize knives could be pulled but we are comparing their unarmed combat so you cant bring knives into the equasion, or if you really want to for the total street thing we can just assume the MMA guy also has a knife) and I bet you a top MMA guy would beat a seal in the street or however you say, with no rules.




You telling me to go fight a navy seal, is like me telling you to go to pride and fight quinton rampage jackson.... its just stupid.

WoW! ive been watching ufc, shootfighting, pride, k-1, you know i missed the knife fighting parts...you are a freakin MORON. So then why dont you call up Rummy and tell him how you MMA guys can KILL seals in the Ring in the street and in knife fights...YOUR WORDS, DIPSHIT. so why havent you swam to iraq and cleaned it all up for us? I hate to be rude but have you ever heard of Alex Gong? That was no seal who took him out. grow up and realize the military trains to kill and mma make each other cry uncle.
oh suddenly you are not one of the worlds baddest men the MMA fighters? oh i see your like a loud mouth 300lb rabid football fan...MY TEAMS BEST...you have never played the game but you think you know all the rules...

[Tant01]

...very, very uncouth, and very, very uncool.
I don't care what you have to say, nobody, no matter what training or preperation they have can prevent or have any sort of defense in a situation like that.
It's true that, perhaps, if Mr. Gong had ceased his pursuit of the guy, the outcome would have been different...but...how could he have known?

and...you are right...it is a VERY different problem, the type of problem that no amount of "reality based" training is going to prevent.

Anybody, anyday is susceptible to a suprise...whether it be a sucker punch, or a bullet.

You may have the credentials...and I may be just a kid....but I HAVE to call this bullshit out into the open, simply because I find it INCREDIBLY disrespectful and outrageously distasteful, and in the same context as trying to plug Tony Blauer's system...why???!

Bad fucking form, man.

First rule of engagement... NEVER UNDERESTIMATE YOUR ENEMY.

I would fully expect a BG to be armed and have friends that were also armed nearby... Without realistic expectations it's easy to be overconfident.

He was a victim, no doubt but it was not unavoidable, THAT'S the sad part!

[BoarSpear]

But in a MMA match, the MMA guy will kill the seal everytime, simply because its not what the seals focus all of their attention on.

.

i wasnt aware of this my bad...I could have sworn the SEALs SPECIALIZED in KILLING people whether they be on LAND, SEA or AIR...maybe you should drop Spec/WAR at line at this link. let them know they arent focusing all thier attention on killing people. Hell just send them a link to this thread.

https://www.military.com/HomePage/UnitCreatedPage/0,11003,718958,00.html

Oh btw since when does the mma crowd specialize in killing people? what network is that on? what color do those guys die thier hair? do they have cute shit like "No fear" on thier clothes also? its easy to have "no fear" with refs and RULES...

[SamuraiGuy]

You really need to settle the **** down ok, i know you jerk off on the navy seals and all that, and maybe your some dipshit who thinks the navy seals are some invincible force but theyre not.

I dont even think you read what I put, I clearly put that in a MMA match The best MMA guy will beaet a navy seal.

I said on the street, with no rules, except that there is no weapons (cause we are comparing their hand to hand fighting ability) that the MMA guy will still win.

You said to phone a seal and tell them that... guess what If I knew a seal I would phone him and say, yes your a seal that is the same weight as Wanderlei Silva, yes Wanderlei Silva could beat you in a MMA match.

The seal being not a fucking moron like you would probably say yeah, thats what they do.

I dont think the MMA guy is going to win a war against seals and I never said that, so stop fucking humping the navy seals and get a life. I can picture you sitting there, NAVY SEALS OWNZORS JOO!

And for the record I havent heard of Alex gong until he was mentioned in this thread, no offense to anyone who knew him , but does it really matter to me who he is?

and just to Reiterate, I will glady tell a navy seal that a top MMA fighter can beat them in a MMA fight.

Oh and you said all the navy seals specialize in killing people and should focus more on killing people.... why would anyone want to be part of that butt **** unit of psychos who just go around killing people... hey there just like a terrorist group, they specialize in killing people and thats what they do....

GET OFF THE SEALS NUTS, they arent some amzing fricking demi-gods who can shoot lightning out of their eyes like you make them out to be....

[BoarSpear]

You really need to settle the **** down ok, i know you jerk off on the navy seals and all that, and maybe your some dipshit who thinks the navy seals are some invincible force but theyre not.

I dont even think you read what I put, I clearly put that in a MMA match The best MMA guy will beaet a navy seal.

I said on the street, with no rules, except that there is no weapons (cause we are comparing their hand to hand fighting ability) that the MMA guy will still win.

You said to phone a seal and tell them that... guess what If I knew a seal I would phone him and say, yes your a seal that is the same weight as Wanderlei Silva, yes Wanderlei Silva could beat you in a MMA match.

The seal being not a fucking moron like you would probably say yeah, thats what they do.

I dont think the MMA guy is going to win a war against seals and I never said that, so stop fucking humping the navy seals and get a life. I can picture you sitting there, NAVY SEALS OWNZORS JOO!

And for the record I havent heard of Alex gong until he was mentioned in this thread, no offense to anyone who knew him , but does it really matter to me who he is?

and just to Reiterate, I will glady tell a navy seal that a top MMA fighter can beat them in a MMA fight.

Oh and you said all the navy seals specialize in killing people and should focus more on killing people.... why would anyone want to be part of that butt **** unit of psychos who just go around killing people... hey there just like a terrorist group, they specialize in killing people and thats what they do....

GET OFF THE SEALS NUTS, they arent some amzing fricking demi-gods who can shoot lightning out of their eyes like you make them out to be....

Cute...what are you 12 yrs old? I did read your post, you seem to state things about mma guys winning knife fights with seals... and killing them in the ring. i didnt start with the seal crap...you did. i came in and said all SF regardless of which service are WARRIORS. People who get athletic commision, boxing commision licenses and fight on Television with "reality" shows on SPIKE channel etc are athletes. Im not the one spouting MMA is so awesome we can Kill navy seals in street fights and Knife fights.

And no i didnt suggest calling one...i said carry your deluded behind down to gate #2 at Damn Neck and run that mouth (or send this thread to the link i provided, they are interested in upping thier h2h skills regardless of what you think). You heard phone call because its like your keyboard...safe to talk shit from behind. As for fighting a roid freak mma champion ...if i am in ones way on the street and he puts on his boxing gloves in a road rage im sure the training in h2h i recieved will serve me quite well against your professional athelete. supplemented of course by my sig and kerambit.

Oh here's a qoute for ya...
"The way cannot be learned through frivolous contest in which trophies or a name are the outcome. The way can only be found where physical death is a reality" Miyamoto Musashi
or this one
"You must train consistantly with the attitude of killing the enemy."
Miyamoto Musashi
... so was he a psycho terrorist also?
You appear to be quite uninformed about how the world works and certainly the military is a mystery to you.
Comparing our troops to the terrorist is a real classy move dipshit...on second thought stay away from Gate #2 or your bubble and cherry might both get busted the same day.

BTW just because Bruce Buffer annonces them as warriors (while they make faces at each other) Doesnt make it so. At least have the dignity to admit that the MEN who FIGHT and DIE to protect your right to sit on your fatass and spout off that mma guys can "kill" Navy seals (hoping your girlfriend will be impressed enough to let you get to first base) DESERVE to be called WARRIORS and the guys you sit on your couch and watch fight on tv for your entertainment are called Professional ATHLETES. Warriors train for war ie killing people...athletes train to make each other "give up" in contest for money and fame.

[BoarSpear]

GET OFF THE SEALS NUTS, they arent some amzing fricking demi-gods who can shoot lightning out of their eyes like you make them out to be....

Dude i never said any such thing ...thats clearly what mma guys do to hear you tell it Seems to me all the jumping up and down gion WE BAD...is from the mma crowd...see the seals are busy fighting for thier lives and your freedom while the mma loudmouths (look in mirror) says unsolicited shit like MMA guys would kill a navy seal in any enviroment the seal didnt have his guns or knives...
You chose to make that statement why? to look cool and make your point...except this isnt your usual can superman beat up underdog using pride rules. its YOU mouthing off about on something you know NOTHING about. note where you said "IF I knew a SEAL I would tell him..." This proves you are talking out your ass...I have worked along side and taught H2H to a number of operators from various branches of the service as well as law enforcement. guess what sonny, guys who go into things like the Special Forces often have more than a passing interest in Fighting. MT/hand, knives (real, not rubber), sticks, grappling, strangles, trips, throws, chokes, neck breaks, knees , elbows...are all part of the package. Very similiar training, VERY DIFFERENT MINDSET.

[EmptyneSs]

Ahoy, I have a question, Emptyness, you were saying that my Krav class sounded like a watered down BJJ/Muay Thai class.... well shit you yourself said BJJ is basically JJ so why the hell would you want to study Watered down JJ

bjj aint watered down ju jitsu, its ju jitsu thats been refined and updated with more modern training techniques.

and kirian, as i said, i dont train to go fight in poolhalls and bars.

[eXcessiveForce]

and lots of rules added to keep people from getting hurt. It's all watered down Judo anyway.