So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?

[mpossoff]

Aaah but Uke, we havent agreed on 90% of the things... chalk that up as another assumption on your part... oh and just so you know.. I have no animosity to you whatsoever... I'm simply giving you my opinion.. guess you cant (no one really can) tell from typing.. but I'm not enraged or anything lol.

Now heres another thing posted by you:

"Its about being prepared. If you're doing something for the fun or sport aspect of it, then so be it. Nothing wrong with that. But then you should know that if you're not serious, then neither is your training. Krav Maga is geared towards survival combat much more than the others that you mentioned, but it won't give you that "sporty" feeling that you seem to be looking for. Self defense isn't supposed to be competitive."

You say if Im doing something for fun or sport, than its fine, but "If I know that im not serious, than neither is your training"... well... dont you think someone could be very serious about training for their sport... even if it is a combat sport... im pretty sure Fedor is serious when he trains.. I'm pretty sure Big Nog, Franklin, Couture, Lidell, Arona, Silva are all fairly serious when they train... even if it is just for sports...

I think you see training as serious when its for self defense... but training for sport is just a different thing than training for street, you can be equally serious training both.. and if I may say so Im more serious about getting better at the competition aspect of it than the self defense.

Its like training for football, or tennis, or soccer, or table tennis... how serious you are is relative...

Now for the second part of your quote...

"Krav Maga is geared towards survival combat much more than the others that you mentioned, but it won't give you that "sporty" feeling that you seem to be looking for."

I realize Krav Maga is geared towards survival combat... I picked at least that much up through my training in it lol... I also realize it wont give me a ... sporty ... feeling.. but even with mma im not looking for a sporty feeling.. im looking for the feeling of competition... I think its a bit different when it comes to combat sports...

Your last sentence was you were suprised I dont advocate taking a guy out quickly in a self defense confrontation... thats another assumption.. never gave my opinion on what I think is best in a street fight... and you know what I do think knocking the guy out, or disabling him as quickly as possible is best in the street confrontation... I also happen to think knocking the guy out as quickly as possible is best in mma...

The thing is I realize it wont always be so easy.... I may know alot of krav maga, but I doubt Im gonna knock a good boxer out real easy with a few strikes, whether they are too the groin or head or w/e... their striking and fight experience would be too good... they would see some of it coming... with that said... Krav Maga isnt about hurting the person as quickly as possible.. although thats often the case.. its about ending the confrontation with as little damage to you or your loved ones etc... whether thats kicking em in the groin and elbowing em a few times than stomping their head... or realizing you just cant hit this guy cause turns out you picked a fight with roy jones jr... you could plant him on his ass and take him out from there....

Krav Maga advocates getting to yoru feet as quickly as possible if youve been knocked down... however there are times when they realize control (clinch) / ground control are more effective...

If I was to walk out my front door and to find roy jones jr standing there telling me we are going to fight... im gonna try to take him down... (that is if he could catch me running back into my house)... this reminds me of something my krav maga teacher has said in the past... if you know your better on the ground.. and there is no one else around... and you can get them there ... do it.... theres no point striking with a superior striking.. when you can dominate them on the ground etc... what if someone jumps you in the bushes by themselves... ground is a viable option in some cases.. and although im not a big fan of assumptions haha... after the initial confrontation you could assume if they had a weapon (knife as in your original scenario)... they would have used it already.. or at least brandished it... either way their gonna try to stab you standing up or on the ground...

this is a pretty long post.. but only one more point...

you said that if I came to any number of schools you have trained at, where they teach Self Defense there are people who could hand me my ass... and you know what im gonna go with you are right on the money with that one bud.... I never said I was the best in the world..

heres the point...

I can tell you to go fight Fedor, or Cro Cop or someone like that.. and hes gonna hand you your ass, whether its the ring, or street....

(im assuming this is unarmed because im pretty sure I can shoot the people at the schools you know...)

Besides... you say alot of people here wont test themselves... or they wont call your bluff and come to a school and see what happens... well im not sure about everyone.. but im an 18 year old... I dont have the time or money to fly around fighting people to see if a guy on the internet was right... and im sure your right... im sure you know plenty of people who could kick my ass...

I doubt if I asked you to come fight my instructor you would hop on a plane and fly right over... but if your up for it hes looking for an opponent in the next KOTC.... although it may be someone from Miletich camp so you can take it up with them lol...

I also wouldnt think of asking someone to come fight my instructor cause why shoudl I assume he would want a challenge, take a challenge, etc.. not my place to accept/ lay down challenges for other people... think about it...

SamuraiGuy and all, when you're in a street fight you don't know what "style" your opponent is involved with verus when you're in the ring you kind of know what the style is because hopefully you have trained to oppose it.

Let's talk about street fights and I've been in many in my younger days....

Like SamuraiGuy said when "you're one on one" different story and when nobody else is around. BJJ can and does work in that situation, provided you're comfortable on the ground. Personally if mr jones came to my door and wanted to fight , I wouldn't hestitate to strike first... my personal option.

Now when we talk about street fighting, there seems to be a mis-conception. Seems to me people here are thinking of a street fight like a UFC bout.

A street fight for me is defending myself and not initiating a fight.

I'm not a huge advocate of BJJ, but I do believe you need to know BJJ. I think BJJ or similar should be about 20% of you're training and not even a main focus.

In a street self defense situation, you have to react fast and don;t have time to size up your opponent. I grew up with some pretty good amateur boxers and I would never go toe to toe with a seasoned boxer. They're quick, can take a punch and react pretty quick.

BUT, a street situation is no way near an organized fight. It's not like you're in the ring with time and distance and have been training against this particular person/style.

My opinion Krav Maga teaches you real life self defense and is pratical. I also believe that with BJJ(20% focus) , Krava Maga is the best system out there.

I would practice BJJ as a sole art of self defense because it's not pratical enough for real life.

Although, it should be part of your training.

Marc

[dougadam]

Kyusho is best for street fighting.

[IPON]

Royce Gracie however went 30 minutes with Severn and eventually tapped him. That shows the importance of size and strength, but also technique as Severn isn't just a powerlifter brawler with no skill.

Hey Tom yes and a interesting point which is it took 30 minutes in a controlled setting. I often wonder if Royce was to fight yarborough instead of hackeney what would happen 500+ to Royce’s 180. No way to choke that big boy and you sure don't want 500lbs in you guard or even 300. Now here is how malleable people are if Royce lost there would not have been the craze of BJJ.

If you go strictly into what is called an MMA gym that has no definitive emphasis or specialty (grappling or stand up) usually the less experienced fighters have so-so boxing, muay thai skills at best and so-so grappling.

Yes unfortunately MMA should just be call MMT mixed martial techniques as stylists tend to be jacks of all trades and masters of none. there are exceptions of course but they are exceptions.

Back to the topic look at Ultimate fighter season 2 the last middleweight fight Jorge and BJJ BB lost to someone with barely any formal training. Now I am not putting BJJ down for those sensitive. But again that is a controlled condition and I constantly say (at least in NYC) the best guard pass is a steel trash to the face just something to think about.




UKE: I do agree with you about the weight classes. I am hear/read people trying to justify a loss “oh he was 10-15lbs heavier” Weight does make a difference but considering the history of the sport come on. I can tell you when I wrestled, because I was paranoid about making weight I was always under I wrestled 188 but was closer to 170 and sometimes (wrestled 170 if the person was really good) The reason I say the and I think Jubaji would agree, any true wrestled would wrestled anyone regardless of size. I saw a 115 pounder pin a heavyweight in practice off a challenge. The HWT wasn’t varsity but the kid gave up 140 lbs. So now you have fighter that are in better physical shape that the original UFC but without the technical knowledge. So your point about flow/transition is a concept that cannot be understood, but it is important to know

[Ronson]

Uke wrote,

"I'm watching the Luke Cummo and Anthony Torres fight in the UFC on SpikeTV as I type this, and if you think that this horrible, horrible display of brawling is how you should train to fight, then you're instructor is one hell of a salesman. Yes, they're throwing muay thai low kicks and knees, but with little results. They're trying to throw punches that resemble boxing, but fail miserably. They clinch when they're tired, and fall to the ground when they're hurt hoping to turn it into a ground bout. This is toughman tournament fighting with BJJ thrown in. Call it MMA. Call it NHB. Call it whatever you like. The skills demonstrated by anyone calling themselves a MMA fighter are toughman at best."

I love it when guys like Uke watch UFC and Prides and criticize the fighters because they can't put each other away like "they" would in a "real life" altercation. Proof that you, Uke, are a major f_uckin' tool. I, too, am guilty of criticizing mma fighters, boxers, and other pro athletes (in the context of battling out against other pro athletes) as "sucking," but it would be foolish , on my part, to think I could do better. Because if it were true, I would be the person on TV doing "it".

[Tom Yum]

I, too, am guilty of criticizing mma fighters, boxers, and other pro athletes (in the context of battling out against other pro athletes) as "sucking," but it would be foolish , on my part, to think I could do better. Because if it were true, I would be the person on TV doing "it".

Ditto.

If you look at the experience thread (an opinion poll) the greatest % of us are either newbees, amateur rec or ranked amateurs.

There are very few pro's on this board.

But they certainly know who they are.

[Uke]

Tom Yum

What's up Uke. The Gracies would never thaibox because they don't do much in terms of stand up. Royce Gracie however went 30 minutes with Severn and eventually tapped him. That shows the importance of size and strength, but also technique as Severn isn't just a powerlifter brawler with no skill.

What's up Tom Yum.

That was an interesting fight to highlight, being that it was Royce's last hoorah. That was the first time they ever showed the triangle choke, and the last time we ever saw Royce win against someone we thought he couldn't beat. For the duration of that match, Severn had Royce pinned and helpless. Royce said he usually likes to win by armbar or choke, but Severn had seen his bag of tricks, and because of that Royce couldn't execute any of them. So, he pulled out a technique that the mainstream audience hadn't seen. Severn didn't think he was in any danger of an armbar. Even the commentators kept saying "there's nothing there". So when Severn began tapping, everyone was shocked and went wild. The Gracies have had 50 years or so to study everyone else's art and how to exploit it while everyone else hasn't been given the same advantage. But in just a few years, 3 to be exact, fighters studied and figured ways to nullify the guard. I'm not taking away from Royce's victory, but it was still at a time when few knew what to expect. In Royce's next fight with Shamrock, we all saw that all his tricks, 4 manuevers to be exact, could be shut down as we all saw him lay there for the duration of his match on his back helpless.

And if most MMA gyms put a specific emphasis on any particular range it would be ground grappling. The strikes of MMA fighters look just like toughman contests. That's an observation, not an insult. That's because MMA fighters falsely believe that they have "discovered" the concept of crosstraining, but go about it wrong and wind up being jacks of all trades and masters of none.

[Tom Yum]

And if most MMA gyms put a specific emphasis on any particular range it would be ground grappling. The strikes of MMA fighters look just like toughman contests. That's an observation, not an insult. That's because MMA fighters falsely believe that they have "discovered" the concept of crosstraining, but go about it wrong and wind up being jacks of all trades and masters of none.

Royce tapped a sumo wrestler with about a 300 lb advantage. Not sure if the sumo fella had done his homework on jujitsu, but he came in with a definite strength and size advantage. Someone used to tossing 400-500 lb guys around has strength and leverage.

I was only talking about lower level MMA fighters; guys with a year or less training who might have some competitive experience. Usually, they evolve and find out that they prefer one range - grappling or stand up and they focus on that range until they get decent at it and then get back into the MMA game.

Schools that sends fighters to MMA comps are never the same. There are some gyms that train specifically in MMA without any background in one art and maybe their students are jacks of all trades, but with many MMA gyms usually the coaches are guys who started out in muay thai and are well trained or jujitsu and have a lot of experience.

I have nothing against MMA, like I have nothing against taiji or tae kwon do.

Would you believe me if I told you there are TKD guys that can win fights? in the ring? in real combat?

[jubaji]

shine! aho

That's because MMA fighters falsely believe that they have "discovered" the concept of crosstraining, but go about it wrong and wind up being jacks of all trades and masters of none.

So you know what they "believe" and you know that these professional fighters are just doing it all wrong. They really should pay you to help them, shouldn't they?



You clearly don't have enough brain power for yourself, don't start trying to read the minds of others. Ya fuckin' presumptuous tool.

[Penance]

uke, that's an interesting way to look at the Shamrock vs Royce fight. Stupid, but interesting. If he was so helpless laying there, then why didn't Shamrock win the fight? He didn't win because he didn't do anything BUT pin Royce to the mat for 30 minutes. Shamrock had 40+ pounds on Royce. And Shamrock is STRONG. Incredibly strong.

I would like to see YOUR guard stand up to Shamrock for 30+ minutes. I guarantee it isn't happening. But, again, Shamrock didn't win, because he didn't try to win. He tried to hang in there, because he knew if he got too crazy or tried for too much, Royce was going to wrap him up.

But, if you consider holding someone you outweigh by 40 lbs on the mat for 30 minutes a win in MMA, by all means, keep on living in your fantasy world.

[Uke]

SamuraiGuy

Aaah but Uke, we havent agreed on 90% of the things... chalk that up as another assumption on your part... oh and just so you know.. I have no animosity to you whatsoever... I'm simply giving you my opinion.. guess you cant (no one really can) tell from typing.. but I'm not enraged or anything lol.

Yeah, I have made assumptions, and I had to because you make sure that you don't take a stance in a debate which allows you the freedom to flounder. You have made very good points in the past though, and still continue to make interesting arguments at times.

You say if Im doing something for fun or sport, than its fine, but "If I know that im not serious, than neither is your training"... well... dont you think someone could be very serious about training for their sport... even if it is a combat sport... im pretty sure Fedor is serious when he trains.. I'm pretty sure Big Nog, Franklin, Couture, Lidell, Arona, Silva are all fairly serious when they train... even if it is just for sports...

I think you see training as serious when its for self defense... but training for sport is just a different thing than training for street, you can be equally serious training both.. and if I may say so Im more serious about getting better at the competition aspect of it than the self defense.

Its like training for football, or tennis, or soccer, or table tennis... how serious you are is relative...

I don't doubt that they are serious if not fanatical when they train. However, they are not training as if their lives depended on it. Otherwise MMA would look a whole lot different. Watching a soccer mom fight another woman because she flirts with her husband will look entirely different when that same woman is fighting someone who is trying to abduct her children. The difference in adrenaline and desperation will be evident when hair-pulling and slapping is replaced with eye gouging, biting and using keys to stab soft tissue targets. And if you don't think that adrenaline plays a huge role in the difference in these scenarios, then I won't insult you, but I will say that you've never been in a fight with a stranger that was anything more than a shoving match or a posturing situation. If you had, you'd know exactly what I'm talking about.

I realize Krav Maga is geared towards survival combat... I picked at least that much up through my training in it lol... I also realize it wont give me a ... sporty ... feeling.. but even with mma im not looking for a sporty feeling.. im looking for the feeling of competition... I think its a bit different when it comes to combat sports...

Your last sentence was you were suprised I dont advocate taking a guy out quickly in a self defense confrontation... thats another assumption.. never gave my opinion on what I think is best in a street fight... and you know what I do think knocking the guy out, or disabling him as quickly as possible is best in the street confrontation... I also happen to think knocking the guy out as quickly as possible is best in mma...

The thing is I realize it wont always be so easy.... I may know alot of krav maga, but I doubt Im gonna knock a good boxer out real easy with a few strikes, whether they are too the groin or head or w/e... their striking and fight experience would be too good... they would see some of it coming... with that said... Krav Maga isnt about hurting the person as quickly as possible.. although thats often the case.. its about ending the confrontation with as little damage to you or your loved ones etc... whether thats kicking em in the groin and elbowing em a few times than stomping their head... or realizing you just cant hit this guy cause turns out you picked a fight with roy jones jr... you could plant him on his ass and take him out from there....

Krav Maga advocates getting to yoru feet as quickly as possible if youve been knocked down... however there are times when they realize control (clinch) / ground control are more effective...

If I was to walk out my front door and to find roy jones jr standing there telling me we are going to fight... im gonna try to take him down... (that is if he could catch me running back into my house)... this reminds me of something my krav maga teacher has said in the past... if you know your better on the ground.. and there is no one else around... and you can get them there ... do it.... theres no point striking with a superior striking.. when you can dominate them on the ground etc... what if someone jumps you in the bushes by themselves... ground is a viable option in some cases.. and although im not a big fan of assumptions haha... after the initial confrontation you could assume if they had a weapon (knife as in your original scenario)... they would have used it already.. or at least brandished it... either way their gonna try to stab you standing up or on the ground...

this is a pretty long post.. but only one more point...

you said that if I came to any number of schools you have trained at, where they teach Self Defense there are people who could hand me my ass... and you know what im gonna go with you are right on the money with that one bud.... I never said I was the best in the world..

heres the point...

I can tell you to go fight Fedor, or Cro Cop or someone like that.. and hes gonna hand you your ass, whether its the ring, or street....

(im assuming this is unarmed because im pretty sure I can shoot the people at the schools you know...)

Besides... you say alot of people here wont test themselves... or they wont call your bluff and come to a school and see what happens... well im not sure about everyone.. but im an 18 year old... I dont have the time or money to fly around fighting people to see if a guy on the internet was right... and im sure your right... im sure you know plenty of people who could kick my ass...

I doubt if I asked you to come fight my instructor you would hop on a plane and fly right over... but if your up for it hes looking for an opponent in the next KOTC.... although it may be someone from Miletich camp so you can take it up with them lol...

I also wouldnt think of asking someone to come fight my instructor cause why shoudl I assume he would want a challenge, take a challenge, etc.. not my place to accept/ lay down challenges for other people... think about it...

If your Krav Maga instructor told you to go to the ground, regardless of who's around, then you need to find another instructor. I agree someone should go to the ground, but it shouldn't be you. Once you get into close quarters I don't care who it is you're fighting, you better use what you've learned to hurt, unbalance, blind and choke that man off of his feet. Volunteering to lay on your back is your choice, but a poor one. If you think that rolling on the ground is the only way to put another man there and control him then you haven't learned as much krav maga as you may have thought. Either that or your instructor isn't qualified and told you to "just lay down" because he didn't have the answers and hoped the other guy didn't know ground fighting or have a weapon. Kneeling, stomping and restraining are not the mount or the guard. And just because I have my opponent on the ground doesn't mean its ground fighting if I'm not laying on the ground. And SamuraiGuy, you'll never know beforehand what the other guy knows unless he's your friend or famous. So the very reasoning that you would "automatically" know to make it a ground fight because the other guy strikes better is another of the many assumptions that you have made. It doesn't matter if you used Roy Jones as an example, because it didn't matter who you used, they'd still have to be known to you for you to make that judgement call.

And no good self defense system predicates itself on one strike. I never wrote "just punch him in the face and knock the guy out" at any point. There have been people who have taken Mike Tyson's shots, so I'm not going to believe that a punch from me is going to do better. But that doesn't mean that you're supposed to make your situation into a bout by "wrastlin'" around on the ground.

And self defense is about the fastest way to hurt a person, no matter if you phrase it politically correct so not to scare away paying students who may be turned off by the reality of self defense. That's why the concept of "the closest weapon to the closest target" says what it does. Unless your instructor doesn't teach that either?

I didn't expect anyone here to go to any school to investigate. I know that many of the people here are not serious and are only posting to just belong. Some people here don't even write about martial arts. They just sit back in the cheap seats and comment, usually about other comments and not martial arts. No one here has to agree with anything I say. I don't expect all of you to even understand half of what I say as many of you didn't even train until you saw the UFC, and most of your understanding of what you think real fighting is comes from watching events like it.

The disservice that the UFC and events like it provide is lulling inexperienced, enthusiastic youngsters into believing that they can have an intimate knowledge of fighting without ever having fought. Which is sad, because even though many of you here have already admitted to never having fought or even sparred full contact you continue to argue with authority because you think that these toughman tournaments have afforded you some real insight without you having to risk getting hurt. You can't tap out from a punch or a kick thrown with bad intentions, and that's why many of you embrace rolling around on the floor as the best.

If you don't find out if what you study works outside the conditions you train in and you rely on people on television to prove your worth, you're not a martial artist or a fighter. You're a voyeur. Someone who lives vicariously through the small percentage of winning competitors in order to feel validated. This applies to everybody.

[BoarSpear]

But, if you consider holding someone you outweigh by 40 lbs on the mat for 30 minutes a win in MMA, by all means, keep on living in your fantasy world.

Are you implying Royce won because he was pinned to the mat for half an hour?

damn man those 400 victories of Hickson get clearer and clearer every time you guys explain your definition of a win...

[Uke]

Penance

uke, that's an interesting way to look at the Shamrock vs Royce fight. Stupid, but interesting. If he was so helpless laying there, then why didn't Shamrock win the fight? He didn't win because he didn't do anything BUT pin Royce to the mat for 30 minutes. Shamrock had 40+ pounds on Royce. And Shamrock is STRONG. Incredibly strong.

I would like to see YOUR guard stand up to Shamrock for 30+ minutes. I guarantee it isn't happening. But, again, Shamrock didn't win, because he didn't try to win. He tried to hang in there, because he knew if he got too crazy or tried for too much, Royce was going to wrap him up.

But, if you consider holding someone you outweigh by 40 lbs on the mat for 30 minutes a win in MMA, by all means, keep on living in your fantasy world.

So I guess Royce won, didn't he? Oh wait, I guess you mean that because he didn't lose that he won, right? Wait, but on the ground BJJ is supposed to THEE BEST system for winning, escaping and reversing, correct? Shamrock doesn't practice BJJ does he? But he was able to make sure that one of BJJ's top practitioners couldn't do a thing for how long? 30+ minutes? Hmm ...

So let me get this straight: BJJ is only good when someone makes a mistake by offering a limb or off balances themselves? Otherwise you have to sit there, just like in the exercise found in the beginning of this thread, and wait until someone comes to help either you or your opponent, right? And that match showed us that the process can exceed 30 minutes, more than enough time for someone your opponent knows to arrive and jump in? Hmm ...

And then you copped a plea by stating ...

Shamrock had 40+ pounds on Royce. And Shamrock is STRONG. Incredibly strong.

... and reinforced what I've been saying about BJJ not being effective unless you fight guys your own weight and size.

And you called me stupid?

[Sensei Saki]

RE: Penance

Oops. I wasn't paying attention. Tell me again what is going on.

[BoarSpear]

Oops. I wasn't paying attention. Tell me again what is going on.

Penance just got spanked

[jubaji]

Oops. I wasn't paying attention. Tell me again what is going on.

Well basically pUke boy has a raging inferiority complex about BJJ for some reason, and is shilling so hard for Karl's Magpie or Taebo or whatever it is that he really should be on the payroll.