So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?

[BoarSpear]

Sure it takes a few seconds for him to remove the blood from my brain... but in those seconds am I going to be clearly thinking, ok , reach into pocket, withdraw knife, stab this guy.

I asked earlier where people get the idea it takes seconds to deploy a blade...many people can deploy a blade and hit a specific target in under 1 second...

Ill prolly be thinking, OW MY FUCKING THROAT WHAT THE **** OW

thats because its your mindset...train that losing means dying, then when under stress you will still go ouch, but at the same time you will be doing whatever it takes to remove the problem.

in my last bjj class we practiced a throw... a simple hip throw from judo...

Yep JUDO is quite useful....glad to hear you are CROSSTRAINING it in your BJJ class. thats the whole point to this thread.

We all need to cross train in the parts of our art that are weakest. Bjj is not good at getting takedowns or throws...and its striking needs work as well. but once you have an opponent down its the best art for ending a ground fight.

judo is great for throwing and takedowns but doesnt finish well if you survive its throws...

Most other arts need to work on takedowns and ground work, while bjj needs to work on stand up...and weapons integration. There is no perfect art or warrior...

[jubaji]

shit you say?.

Shit, I say.

[jubaji]

I absolutely agree BJJ cannot be used in a street fight. .

"cannot"?...............

[Uke]

Uke is obviously an agenda troll who doesn't like BJJ. BTW Uke, did you try your experiment with some guy without any grappling experience? I wonder how many times he would have been stabbed? The presented "experiment" wouldn't work in anyone's favor whether it be BJJ, Muay Thai, kung-fu or whatever... And once again, we're presented with the multiple attackers, weapons, etc... What's next, broken glass on the ground? Or the maybe we're fighting spikes...

People seem to think that BJJ guys are a different breed of humans who function after a form... WRONG... We're just as human as everyone else. Pull out a knife and I'll grab the nearest weapon or look for the quickest exit. If I get to Guard, it's by default and I need to get out quick if I suspect danger, but at least I'll know how to get out - that's the trick.

If I had an agenda, I would be promoting my styles or at least some other style by now. I purposely have not, because this debate can stand on its own merits without anyone having to say "This is better than that". The topic is about BJJ, and why it isn't suitable for self defense in the streets.

And if you took the time to read before you write, you would see that I explained the different ways a self defense man would or could handle the situation as opposed to a BJJ player. A man on his feet could use disarms, strikes and can run. But you didn't read that because you think that by jumping in the middle of an argument that you're informed. If you had bothered to read that I wrote that BJJ is useful for learning the fastest ways to escape the guard and mount and get to your feet, and reverse submissions and chokes, then maybe you would have had more of a productive response and less of a defensive one. You don't have to defend an art. If it is as effective as some of you suggest, then it should be able to defend itself in a logical debate about its techniques and qualities.

In any art, a teacher or practitioner should be able to not only effectively apply techniques, but they should be able to tell you why the technique works, and why it was chosen over others that may have left you at risk. That's what some of us here are doing.

Thanks for your comments

[mixwell]

In any art, a teacher or practitioner should be able to not only effectively apply techniques, but they should be able to tell you why the technique works, and why it was chosen over others that may have left you at risk. That's what some of us here are doing.

Thanks for your comments

I totally agree with you on this !!! The only thing though is that there is no real MA that covers all aspects of a street fight. BJJ on its own has its flaws as well as another MA would on its own.. I do believe that there are BJJ moves that would apply on the street nicely as well as other MA's.. But to say BJJ isn't 100% effective on the street should just be common sense. I train in BJJ myself and I love it but I am not going to pretend like it is the ultimate answer to a street fight. Speaking of which I am off to BJJ class. I will check back for updates later..

-Peace

[shaolin-warrior]

I'm in partial agreement with you, but if you have a decent krav maga school in your area, check it out. We have one that is reality based and it probably could be very effective if you put the right amout of time into training.

[Uke]

Uke,

after my first and only post, you said that there werent any points that you didnt adress... you never adressed mine though.

A man who is by no means a "master" of BJJ, (although he's really fricking good) can literally beat me before I know whats happening.... and by beat me, I mean choking the life out of me or braking my arms.

Sure it takes a few seconds for him to remove the blood from my brain... but in those seconds am I going to be clearly thinking, ok , reach into pocket, withdraw knife, stab this guy.

Ill prolly be thinking, OW MY FUCKING THROAT WHAT THE **** OW

You brought up the fact that in all the grappling matches between the masters they always end up in gaurd, and that in a streetfight, that would happen because all the masters end up their.

I gotta tell you, your right about one thing, the masters do end up in gaurd, because it is the neutral position in BJJ, no one has the clear advantage, its personal preference.... put one of those masters in with a guy with no training, a white belt, a blue belt, a purple belt, watch how long they are in the gaurd, (if their goal is to beat you as quickly as possible).

Someone else, might have been Uke, not sure, brought up eye gouges, kicking in the groin etc, in my last bjj class we practiced a throw... a simple hip throw from judo... now after this particular throw you had the guys arm, and he was on his back/side.... they recommended putting the guy in an armbar or wristlock from there.

With that said, the same guy who can do the armbar/wristlock, would have no problem , dropping his knee on to the guys face, or letting go of the guys arm, or still holding the guys arm, and kicking the guy in the face... you dont need training to kick someone in the face when their on the ground.

If you could adress all these points, and my previous ones I'd like to hear what you have to say, also, please dont just call me a child, or an "arguer" and not a debater... I have valid points and would like an answer not an excuse...

Thank you for your comments.

Let me start of by addressing the end of your post. I would not call anyone a child or an "arguer" who didn't act like one. Some posters here had little of value to say, so they resorted to disrespectful comments.

Now, Jimbob did a very good job of responding to what you wrote. If a man who studies BJJ can beat you so easily, then its because of a couple of reasons:

1)If he's getting the best of you while you're standing up, then you aren't being aggressive enough. As soon as you tag him once, the next move will be him pulling you into his guard.

2)If he's submitting you from the guard that quickly, its because you have little grappling experience and knowledge. Not just in BJJ, but grappling in general. When in the guard, a BJJ player takes what you give them. If you have no idea what you're doing in the guard, but you try anyway, you're going to wind up offering up your arm or your back. I'll restate this for you: Learn enough about BJJ so that you can escape the guard and mount to get back on your feet quickly, and learn how to avoid and reverse submissions and chokes. Without that knowledge in today's scape of BJJ followers you will have quite a hole in your game.

3)You're in bad shape. The better athlete will always have an edge. Stamina. Strength. Endurance. I'm not suggesting that you're in bad shape, but I am saying that if you are, it can be a factor. You can use weights or bodyweight exercises. Don't go for bulk. Go for functional strength.

I think its great that you're learning poison hand techniques like eye gouges, throat and groin strikes and such. Biting and hair pulling work as well. But keep in mind, just because your expanding your tools doesn't make them BJJ. Just because you start practicing muay thai doesn't make the strikes apart of BJJ. Marco Ruas studied BJJ, but he also studied muay thai, and he didn't call it BJJ because he knew that it no longer was.

Also, I'd like to add that as more time went on, it became harder and harder to beat people in NHB using BJJ. The reason that it originally was so devastating was because no one had any experience dealing with it. Nowadays, strikers have trained in some ground grappling for the exact reasons that I gave: to escape the guard and mount and reverse submissions. The more and more strikers learn, the harder it will be for BJJ to be effective. We've already seen a decline in how often they win. They used to win everything in the early 90's. But people caught on a learned enough to defend against it.

I hope that I addressed your points, SamuraiGuy. If I missed any, please let me know.

Thanks for your comments

[pstevens]

If I had an agenda, I would be promoting my styles or at least some other style by now. I purposely have not, because this debate can stand on its own merits without anyone having to say "This is better than that". The topic is about BJJ, and why it isn't suitable for self defense in the streets.

And if you took the time to read before you write, you would see that I explained the different ways a self defense man would or could handle the situation as opposed to a BJJ player. A man on his feet could use disarms, strikes and can run. But you didn't read that because you think that by jumping in the middle of an argument that you're informed. If you had bothered to read that I wrote that BJJ is useful for learning the fastest ways to escape the guard and mount and get to your feet, and reverse submissions and chokes, then maybe you would have had more of a productive response and less of a defensive one. You don't have to defend an art. If it is as effective as some of you suggest, then it should be able to defend itself in a logical debate about its techniques and qualities.

In any art, a teacher or practitioner should be able to not only effectively apply techniques, but they should be able to tell you why the technique works, and why it was chosen over others that may have left you at risk. That's what some of us here are doing.

Thanks for your comments

Uke,

Your agenda is to discredit BJJ for whatever reasons... But that's not my problem or concern. I just want to address your little experiment.

So "Yes," I did read your first post and it offers the same challenge for any martial arts style. FIRST, you already assume someone is on the ground with an assailant above them. Why? Put anyone on the ground during your "experiment" and the BJJ guy will do better than the rest.

Your experiment fails because it never addresses the circumstances of which someone is lying on the ground with an armed assailant over them. Give me the best knife expert or self-defense expert in the world and place him underneath an armed assailant and I GAURANTEE you will get the same results - a dead man.

You're REAL argument is that you don't believe BJJ to be credible on the streets. That's fine, it's your opinion... I don't believe anything is credible on the streets... You just have to deal with whatever situation you're in.

[Uke]

I totally agree with you on this !!! The only thing though is that there is no real MA that covers all aspects of a street fight. BJJ on its own has its flaws as well as another MA would on its own.. I do believe that there are BJJ moves that would apply on the street nicely as well as other MA's.. But to say BJJ isn't 100% effective on the street should just be common sense. I train in BJJ myself and I love it but I am not going to pretend like it is the ultimate answer to a street fight. Speaking of which I am off to BJJ class. I will check back for updates later..

-Peace

"The only thing though is that there is no real MA that covers all aspects of a street fight."

Oh, but there are. Shaolin-Warrior mentioned a system that deals with those issues alot more than the others we've been discussing. And that one is not even the most thorough discipline. There are systems that have everything we've been discussing. If there weren't, I wouldn't be aware of the proven principles that I've been writing about. I didn't create them, I've just studied and practiced them for years. These systems are known in the martial arts community, but just not commercially like some others.

Keep looking, my brother.

[Uke]

Uke,

Your agenda is to discredit BJJ for whatever reasons... But that's not my problem or concern. I just want to address your little experiment.

So "Yes," I did read your first post and it offers the same challenge for any martial arts style. FIRST, you already assume someone is on the ground with an assailant above them. Why? Put anyone on the ground during your "experiment" and the BJJ guy will do better than the rest.

Your experiment fails because it never addresses the circumstances of which someone is lying on the ground with an armed assailant over them. Give me the best knife expert or self-defense expert in the world and place him underneath an armed assailant and I GAURANTEE you will get the same results - a dead man.

You're REAL argument is that you don't believe BJJ to be credible on the streets. That's fine, it's your opinion... I don't believe anything is credible on the streets... You just have to deal with whatever situation you're in.

First off, I'm not trying to discredit anything. I'm giving a analysis of BJJ. Just because I have pointed out what it lacks as a self defense method doesn't mean that I have to follow up with compliments to appease those who take this debate personally. But if you must have the positive attributes, BJJ's biggest accomplishment was showing the world the holes in their game, and how easily a man who trained in BJJ could exploit them. Its definitely made its mark for that and will be remembered.

Now, my experiment hasn't failed. Its succeeded many time before I've ever made any of you aware of it. You miss the point of the exercise. The reason that the exercise has you beginning from the guard is because that is the defensive position that nearly every BJJ player takes once an assailant becomes very aggressive. You can debate that, but many of us know that to be true. Working from the guard is a natural instinct for the BJJ player. That's not so for self defense, or even traditional TMA's. And when the guard scenario was suggested, it wasn't because the attacker tackled you, but more because you pulled the attacker into your guard to avoid getting blasted.

And I agree, the best knife expert or self defense man underneath an armed attacker would get killed, which is specifically why no one who has self defense in mind would ever train to fight in the guard as a means of offense. If I were taken to the ground, of course I'd use BJJ to make sure the man didn't get a superior position or submission hold, but that's where the buck stops. Once I had the space, I'd get to my feet and be ready to attack and defend. I would not, I repeat WOULD NOT EVER attempt to put a man in my guard or even mount him in a real fight. I wouldn't be mobile, and I'd be very susceptible to a weapon attack from the guy I'm fighting with. Like it or not, having someone in your guard or mounting someone locks you into a stationary position, in which the attacker or his friends can get to you.

A self defense mindset teaches you to ALWAYS fight a man like he has a weapon, regardless if you see it or not. That is the difference between self defense and BJJ: Every time a self defense man fights he fights as if its the worst-case scenario, while a BJJ player does not. Anyone who has studied both arts should IMMEDIATELY see the contrast in objectives, methods and philosophies.

Thank you for your comments.

[EmptyneSs]

bjj is all about self defense. it shows u how to escape out of being in some of the most dangerous positions and holds a person can be in. dude just being able to effectively escape mount is one of the most important things anyone should know. anytime someone is trying to physically pin u down, he is planning to do bad things to u. some of which might even be x rated. u wanna know how the **** to get away. and ju jitu gives u tons of options to escape all positions using technique.

[cam427]

Its not that I've misunderstood or wrote false statements Cam, its just that you can't read.

I have practiced jujitsu for more than 20 years so yes, I do know about throws. And I've done it long enough to know that no one, not even my masters, can just throw a man, unless he was already off balance or didn't see you coming. Real fights are not shoving matches where one guy just sidesteps and executes throws. This isn't a Steven Segal movie. You are not walking up to a guy who has it in his mind to hurt you and tossing him.

As far as people lasting more than minute, all you'd have to do is watch footage of Rickson or Royce or Nogueira. That's why I brought up Kimo earlier. Kimo had not trained in anything at the time, but gave Royce his most difficult UFC fight at that point. A tough guy who wanted to win beat up Gracie so badly that he couldn't continue. Yes, Kimo lost, but he did prove my point.

To clarify, I never stated that you said you couldn't last a minute against anyone. I responded to you stating "I have trained with several BJJ guys who finished me in seconds." Those are your words, not me misunderstanding them. If you're getting submitted in seconds, but untrained Kimo lasted almsot 5 minutes, that says it all. And while I'm about to assume, I feel safe saying that you were submitted by BJJ players not of Royce's skill level.

If you use the Royce Grace/Kimo match as a modleIf Royce was in my football scenario, he'd have gotten stabbed or stomped to death as well, and he didn't even start from the guard. But like every other top BJJ man 99% of the time, he ended up there.

Thanks for your comments, Little Buddy

McSensei Uke,

You state that you have no agenda and yet you have studied 20 years of jujitsu. If I had studied 20 years of an art that was proven to be quite ineffective I would be very upset so I can understand your position. Certainly my old jujitsu instructor (who taught me how to be a bouncer) had no difficulty throwing someone in a real situation. I have even done it myself with just a couple of years of jujitsu. If after 20 years of jujitsu you are still unable to throw someone in a real fight then perhaps you need to consider doing something else.

To your second point. I think that you are badly underestimating Kimo. Yes, he gave Royce a tough fight but he is a tough man. Some people are just tough! I certainly did not see anyone else from any other style that looked like beating Kimo.

Was the person who beat me in seconds of Royce's skill level, no he was not, but he was the best BJJ guy in the country where I live (and a european champion) so I feel no embarrasement (that is called "reality").

Are you saying that you could last five minutes against Kimo with your "Deadly" art thus proving it is better than BJJ?

The difference between you and I is that I know some people will beat me easily and I will beat some others easily. The reason I know this is because I actually test the training that I do whereas you live in a fantasy where you can beat everyone in seconds but these scenarios only exist in your mind.

(I love that smiley) Cam

[pstevens]

First off, I'm not trying to discredit anything. I'm giving a analysis of BJJ. Just because I have pointed out what it lacks as a self defense method doesn't mean that I have to follow up with compliments to appease those who take this debate personally.

Hence, you have an agenda...

Now, my experiment hasn't failed. Its succeeded many time before I've ever made any of you aware of it. You miss the point of the exercise. The reason that the exercise has you beginning from the guard is because that is the defensive position that nearly every BJJ player takes once an assailant becomes very aggressive. You can debate that, but many of us know that to be true. Working from the guard is a natural instinct for the BJJ player. That's not so for self defense, or even traditional TMA's. And when the guard scenario was suggested, it wasn't because the attacker tackled you, but more because you pulled the attacker into your guard to avoid getting blasted.

Truthfully, Uke, your experiment doesn’t prove anything. To prove this point, let me share with you a little information about research. Research falls within two categories - quantitative and qualitative. Quantitative research deals with collecting numbers to examine the outcome, while qualitative objectively examines the process and is concerned with observation. The point of research is “discovery.”

Your project, while seemingly qualitative in nature, is not because it is bias. You already had a preconceived idea of what you wanted to achieve and the experiment was designed in that manner. For this reason, firms almost always hire an independent team to research to avoid bias.

The flaws of your project are many, so I will only point out the important ones - design, sampling and legitimacy.

DESIGN FLAWS - Generally, research tries to simulate the actual event as closely as possible. Your experiment has a man wrapping his legs around another man, while the man inside the “guard” reveals a concealed weapon. This experiment applied to any sample (person) will result in the same outcome. It does not address the circumstances (variables) of the situation. It DOES NOT prove the difference between the reactions of a self-defense person or a BJJ person, because the project fails to differentiate between the two. Further along the same lines, the environment is completely off track. A football field is hardly considered one of the most likely places a person will be stabbed to death. Football fields are generally locked up, or off limits. But more importantly, the psychological factor is completely ignored. Something as intense as a fight requires a certain level of emotion, rage and fear... None of which are controlled or introduced by this experiment.

SAMPLING FLAWS - The sample is not stratified and does not represent self-defense experts or BJJ players. Did you have a sample of self-defense experts who passed the same experiment, while the BJJ players continually failed? If not, then the experiment was bias, because the setup DID NOT permit any other outcome.

LEGITIMACY - Finally, because you are not certified by any professional research committee, trying to pass your experiment to us as fact is ill-advised. It’s nothing more than an opinion. An opinion based on your own bias. No self-respecting martial artist, or person, would buy into it.

And I agree, the best knife expert or self defense man underneath an armed attacker would get killed, which is specifically why no one who has self defense in mind would ever train to fight in the guard as a means of offense. If I were taken to the ground, of course I'd use BJJ to make sure the man didn't get a superior position or submission hold, but that's where the buck stops. Once I had the space, I'd get to my feet and be ready to attack and defend. I would not, I repeat WOULD NOT EVER attempt to put a man in my guard or even mount him in a real fight. I wouldn't be mobile, and I'd be very susceptible to a weapon attack from the guy I'm fighting with. Like it or not, having someone in your guard or mounting someone locks you into a stationary position, in which the attacker or his friends can get to you.

You are suggesting that a BJJ can’t tell the difference between a real fight and a sparring session which is naive. Your logic is flawed in this manner. You say that someone such as yourself can learn BJJ (ingraining its habits and doctrines into your muscle memory) and then completely ignore it when a real situation arises, meanwhile another person would have difficulty letting go once an altercation occurred. That’s not logical. The TWO individuals WILL REACT differently, but not just because of what they’ve learned, but because of WHO they are.

A self defense mindset teaches you to ALWAYS fight a man like he has a weapon, regardless if you see it or not. That is the difference between self defense and BJJ: Every time a self defense man fights he fights as if its the worst-case scenario, while a BJJ player does not. Anyone who has studied both arts should IMMEDIATELY see the contrast in objectives, methods and philosophies.

I would be interested to see the research results of the differences between the mindset of a self-defense oriented person and a BJJ person when they are both confronted with a life and death situation. My guess is that both would be the same... Afterall, we’re only human.

Anyway, I’m finished here... I don’t like to engage in a war of generalizations

[DJColdfusion]

[QUOTE=Uke]
The exercise in the beginning of this topic is exactly how a BJJ man would handle aggression. There's no opinion about it. There's no comprehensive stand up techniques in BJJ. Only if you're attempting a front choke, flying armbar or a rolling legbar, all which would put you on the ground again.

[QUOTE]

I am a BJJ man. I have competed in the PanAms multiple times and I've trained with a Myriad of National, PanAmerican, and world champions. And I can tell you with 100% certainty that a BJJ fighter would NOT "handle agression" that way. The premise of your experiment is poorly formulated which has polluted your conclusion.

I have yet to meet a "BJJ man" who is only a "BJJ man". BJJ fighters tend to cross train in multiple martial arts.

Believe it or not, BJJ does have strikes, but not a ton of them. There are punches and elbows, kicks and knees. But the striking techniques are generally reserved to the selfdefense curriculum that every reputable BJJ school will teach.

I have spent over 20 years training in the martial arts with some of the best instructors in the world and BJJ will do more for you in a real combat situation, not a contrived situation that no martial art will save you from, than damn near any "traditional" style. And the reason why it will work for you better than the TMAs is that BJJ is trained realistically against a resisting opponent.

Most martial arts schools teach little more than dance where the student is taught to jump around, scream, and kick and punch opponents who aren't really there. Which is fine if you want to learn how to defend yourself against people who aren't really there because they're the only ones you'll be ready for.

Another great thing about BJJ is how easy it is to adapt and combine with other realistically trained martial arts. BJJ and Muay Thai are wonderful together because they can be trained realistically as separate arts and then together as mixed martial arts. If you're smart you're also working your Kali/Escrima and participating in mixed sparring sessions and scenario based training sessions where there is contact and you NEVER have the advantage when the drill starts.

[Uke]

DJColdfusion, Pstevens and Cam427

Thank you for your comments.

Its interesting that only Cam and pstevens have taken this debate so personally. Using disrespectful words, smiley faces for battles you cannot fight, and over a dozen facts that you've glossed over.

Why don't we tell the forum why you are so rigid in your views, and refuse to even explore the scenarios, Cam? Is it because you run a BJJ school, maybe 2, and by admitting what others here have come to see(even BJJ practitioners have conceded to many of the facts presented here), you would be admitting that you are not teaching your students how to prepare for the streets? Do you run a BJJ school? Because if you do, then it will make it very clear to everyone here why you've avoided tons of the facts presented(not only from myself), and then pretend that you are doing us a favor by hand-selecting the points that you think you "might" have a chance of debating.

Again, do you run a BJJ school or a school that teaches BJJ?

Are you selling a sport proven art that has gained a reputation in America as street effective only because of the success of Royce Gracie participating in his brother Rorion's tournament? It had no time limits(advantage: Gracie);No biting(advantage:Gracie);No eye gouges(advantage:Gracie);Mats(advantage:Gracie); and years to study and analyze stand up styles, while the other fighters had NEVER encountered BJJ(advantage:Gracie).

As I have stated before, in the first 3 UFC's no one had footage to review or experience with dealing with the Gracies except for Jason Delucia. Since then, we've seen BJJ player after BJJ player lose. In the beginning, the BJJ players beat everybody. As time went on, the Maurice Smiths of the world and company began to catch on to what they once knew nothing about. And now, BJJ is NOT the dominant style in NHB anymore, and it never was is in the street in any country.

You all make pretend that when you add other styles' strikes and tactics to your BJJ practice, that you didn't do it out of NECESSITY. You have yet to admit that, but pretend that others avoid your points. You pretend not to see that when you start incorportating stikes and other tools into your style, ITS NO LONGER BJJ. Yet, you use insults and cartoons to be disrespectful because of the lack of knowledge and integrity you have. That's why you are a child.

You all also neglect to acknowledge that you will fight the same way you are taught through training. That is a UNIVERSAL MAXIM in all of martial arts. If you train to shoot in, or tie up your man and go to the guard, or even just go to the ground with him not necessarily in the guard but to fight for the mount position in your school, YOU WILL FIGHT THAT WAY IN THE STREETS. A better example is if you're a BJJ player and decide to try boxing to supplement your strikes, you may try boxing the first time you get into an altercation, but anyone with a child's worth of experience knows that the first time that you get hit hard you'll revert back to BJJ in a flash. The same way a boxer will clinch when he's rocked with a good shot. He goes to what he believes is a safe place, because the rules he is accustomed to promote that kind of safety in the ring.

And you can attempt to discuss what "real" research is Pstevens, but as I've said before, the truth is in the doing and practice of a thing, not in the debating of it. I've given EVERYONE on this forum an opportunity to research what I've written for themselves. What have you offered? Nothing but academic drivel about what research is and hypothetical situations that you feel might highlight the worth of BJJ, but never anything for worth someone who opposes my ideas can try for themselves. And the reason for that is you had nothing to offer in that regard, or you would have. You say no self-respecting person would buy into what I've wriiten, when in fact many of this forums BJJ practitioners have written that they see the merit in my words. Furthermore, most self defense systems are already waving the same flag that I am as they are beginning to offer "anti-grappling" techniques to make sure their students DO NOT go to the ground in a fight, because they realize that being on the ground in a real fight without rules or referees is foolish as you are vulnerable to nearly anything and everyone. Even a fighter's girlfriend could take you out with a bottle or a brick on the ground, even if you see her coming if you're in the mount or using your guard.

Now DJColdfusion, your reply was the only post that was devoid of insults and desperate replies. I commend you on that and thank you for your maturity. Now you say that you've trained with these champions, but the fact still is that they all train in the same BJJ sport jujitsu. I don't understand how half of these guys missed that fact in my posts that many of us in NY have studied with Renzo Gracie and Craig Kukuk years ago, and I personally have lived in Hawaii, and have heard Relson Gracie state that BJJ is a style better suited for competition because it lacks the elements to address certain realities. He even went further to suggest the Inoue brothers if someone wanted to better equip themselves to fight and not just compete. These are Relson Gracie's words, not my own. But this is just one of many parts of my posts that pstevens and Cam have looked passed and ignored, because they have no response. Their art is BJJ, and the most prominent family in BJJ has acknowledged these points. The only thing they have left is to call me a liar because they have nothing else left.

DJColdfusion, you say that you have yet to meet a BJJ man who studies only BJJ. And that statement further strengthens what I have been saying. You should not have to look outside BJJ if it has the elements you need to fight any other style. Additionally, once you begin adding techniques from other styles, its no longer BJJ. Its a hybrid of BJJ and whatever else you're adding. And I've watched Rickson, Royce, Renzo and Royler fight in NHB. And I've seen just how inept their strikes are. They only strike to entice an opponent to either charge or create an opening for a shoot. All anyone has to do to know how good an art is would be to watch the best do it. You're not going to get much better in BJJ than those 4. Watch them fight and see if everything that I've said here isn't true. And if you still feel that they would fight differently in the street, go buy the "Gracie in Action" tapes. You'll get an eyeful of them doing exactly what I've been saying OUT OF THE RING. Don't overlook that last statement. GO WATCH THE "GRACIE IN ACTION" TAPES. And then come back and tell me that they would "switch it up" outside on the streets. Pay particular attention to Rickson's fight on the beach. He is the best of them after all, right?

DJColdfusion, I agree that TMA's do not teach practical self defense for today's world and its conditions. We certainly agree on that. But the one thing that they put emphasis on that BJJ doesn't is staying on your feet. That is so important. I don't know what you are convinced that you can do on the ground, but I suggest you re-evaluate just how many option you have once you're down there.

Don't get me wrong. I believe that BJJ can deal with people on the ground. I believe in one on one fights with no weapons and no biting or eye gouges that BJJ is very formidable. Especially on a soft surface like a mat or on the beach. But in the real world, there are no fair fights. There are no referees. And the time limits are who's friends get there first to help. People will bite you and try and dig your eyes out in a real fight. There definitely will be weapons. But you are correct when you say that it is easy to adopt into other styles that train realistically. However, as I said, the progressive systems are beginning to offer "anti-grappling", meaning that they teach you to defend against techniques that lead to ground bouts. They put a great deal of value on being on your feet, as will most of the arts in a couple of years. Its already started. EBMAS is already offering anti-grappling, because they say as I have said here that fighting on the ground should be a fight to get back to your feet. Krav Maga offers anti-grappling. As does many, many other reality-based MA systems that most of you never heard of because they don't appear frequently in Black Belt magazine.

Still, thank you for your comments DJColdfusion and the mature way that you conduct yourself.