So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?

[Uke]

If you are interested in effective street self defense, DO NOT FOCUS ON BJJ.
On the street, it will definitely get you killed. If you watch any UFC, or NHB type show, the guys who are doing BJJ are lying on the ground for what seems like an hour. Even when the Gracies have their so-called street fights, they have an entourage of 15-20 with them, to keep the fight 1 on 1. That is not reality whatsoever in the street. In a one on one situation where there are no other people to interfere, and the other person absolutely has no weapons(the likelihood of this is 1000 to 1), BJJ is very good. But self defense means that you are defending yourself in today's conditions that you cannot control. I've seen guys go to the ground and get stomped half to death, because it was instinct for them because of their BJJ training. Would you be willing to go to the guard on the dance floor of a nightclub, where people have bottles and are wearing boots and high heels? Did you know that once you have someone in the guard, if they have a weapon they can stab you to death? Even with a pen.

Don't take my word for it. Try this exercise for yourself and see.

You'll need about 3 friends for this. Wear a white t-shirt. Go to a local football field and set up in an end zone. Get a friend(We'll call him guy A) about 20-30 pounds heavier than you. He doesn't have to know a thing about BJJ. Have him put a black magic marker in his back pocket. Have the 2 other friends(guys B & C) go to the opposite end zone. Explain to your friends that you will be grappling with guy A. You'll put him in your guard, and his objective is to try to get the magic marker out of his back pocket and write on you as many times as he can, while making sure he doesn't let you escape or submit him. All the while you'll be trying to submit, choke and/or escape. As soon as you have him in your guard, he is to yell "Ready!", and guys B & C have to get over to the other end zone and help him. The exercise is over when guys B & C reach you with guy A in your guard, unless you want to take them on while you're still on the ground.

So, to sum it up, you have to control guy A while trying to submit, choke or escape him before he can mark you with the marker. Also, you have a time limit because once he yells "Ready", guys B & C are coming from 100 yards away to help guy A. This will demonstrate what I have been saying all along. Not only will you find multiple marks on your white t-shirt, but you'll see how difficult, nearly impossible it is to deal with a heavier guy, a weapon and reinforcements on your back. Its dangerous enough on your feet, but borders stupidity on your back.

*What I didn't mention:

In reality, you wouldn't know about the marker(knife) until it was too late.

In reality, friends wouldn't be 100 yards away.

In reality, there are more targets than just the area of the white t-shirt.

In reality, guy A could be a lot more than just 20-30lbs heavier.

In reality, those "marks" on your t-shirt would be more than just to keep score. And no matter how well you do, just a couple of well placed "marks" and even if you win, you're dead.

I've said this before and I'll say it again ... If you are going to study BJJ, study it to learn the fastest ways to ESCAPE the guard and the mount, and how to reverse submissions and chokes. That is the real value of BJJ: Knowing how to get OFF OF THE GROUND the fastest way possible, and back into a self defense situation, not a bout that wastes precious time that you could be using to end the fight and escape.

Ken Shamrock showed a tremendous hole on BJJ in his last fight against Royce Gracie. All he did was put his weight on Royce, and didn't offer any limbs or openings. Royce was pretty much helpless. Not that Shamrock was an offensive threat in that fight, but he demonstrated how to nullify BJJ tools. And even though all Shamrock did was use stalling tactics in that UFC match, the above exercise clearly shows how stalling can mean the end of your life in the street.

Good luck with the exercise, and let me know how it goes for you.

- Uke

[covaliufan]

You have a lot of very unreasonable assumptions. A minor one is that if a skilled grappler is fighting someone the grappler will pull guard, when in fact all decent grapplers, bjj included, will prefer to take the other person down instead, gaining a top position.

Another one is that if I got into fights I'd most likely be the one alone, but when I'm out late, going to bars and clubs, it's always with other people. What's more, it's often with several people who train with me. The person or group that starts a fight with four or five of my training partners at once is in for a very bad day.

But that's a minor point. Your main contention is that it's bad to be tied up with someone on the ground, due to the dangers of his having friends or a hidden weapon. You haven't offerred any evidence that it's less dangerous to be standing up exchanging blows with someone that has friends or a concealed weapon than it is to be on the ground. It's when we're both standing and I have no control over someone's limbs that he can easily pull out his weapon, and even if I am standing someone can easily hit me or grab me from behind. But this isn't the most important thing wrong with your argument either.

In real life, the question isn't "is this the best way to fight for the street." That's macho fantasy crap. The real question, if you're concerned with hidden weapons and lots of people and broken glass and lava, is can I run away? I'm a decent bjj'er, exactly the sort of person you're addressing, and let me make this clear to you: I have never started a fight, and have no intention of doing so. If I'm on da street and someone makes me feel threatened or starts a fight with me: if I'm afraid of weapons and gangs: I'm RUNNING AWAY. You should be to.

Now, what might keep me from running away? Being grabbed by someone. If I actually spent time worrying about fighting large groups of people, I'd be particulary worried about being taken to the ground myself. If I'm fighting with one guy, what's to stop another from just tackling me? What's to stop someone else from knocking me down, tripping me, or pushing me? Nothing. It's against a group of people that I'd most worried about being able to escape inferior ground positions, negate punches, get to my feet, break grips, so as to be able to run away.

To summarize: it's when fighting a bunch of people that ground skills have the potential to be all important, not because you impose your grapplerly will on others, but because that's when you're most likely to be forced onto the ground yourself. If no one's grabbing you, holding you, or sitting on you, you're running away.

Now shut up and go practice your sprints, street fighter.

[gregimotis]

Here's a 'street' drill you might also consider: Two guys standing on asphalt and two other guys fifty yards away. BJJ/wrestling guy steps in, inserts arm between opponents legs, hoists opponent shoulder high and drives opponent flat on his back on the hard-ass pavement.

Persons B and C get to think about that while they cover the remaining distance.

[gregimotis]

BEST Style for street fighting (yes, I'm going to give up the secret right here):


















Warning, spoiler ahead.......



















Go out onto the streets and pick two or three fights a month for the next three years. If you survive, you'll be the baddest street fighter on this here board and we will all bow to your street fighter knowledge.

[Uke]

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate all opinions. However there is no need to be disrespectful. Your childishness doesn't strengthen your argument, it just makes everyone want to read what you've written less, and takes away from the quality of our debate.

Now with that said, you can try the above exercise from the mount as well. The person on the bottom can still reach their weapon and stab you. All they really have to do is hold you until their friends get there. Also, even THE BEST grapplers don't get a mount on the initial trip to the ground 99% of the time. That is why EVERY BJJ fighter in any NHB event always has a bout that lasts for more than a minute, most are a couple of minutes to alot. And for the very few that don't, I've factored in that 1%.

I've offered plenty of evidence that its safer to be on your feet than it is to be on your back or wrestling around on the floor, especially when it comes to weapons. On your feet you can move, maneuver, run or even get an equalizer. On your back, you have nothing but BJJ, no other options.

In best case scenarios, I would definitely run away as well, but to say that every scenario is the best scenario would be a foolish and inexperienced remark. You say that being grabbed is what would keep you from running away? What about if you're with your women, or kids? Are you going to say to them "Every man for himself" and dash away? What about people who cannot run away? What about people who cannot outrun the attacker, like overweight people, old people or people with injuries?

Also, you subscribe to the Gracie method of never leaving without an entourage, which most people DO NOT do. This post wasn't specifically addressed to you, but to everyone and THEIR situations. Not everyone will have 6 or 7 of their training partners with them all the time. And even if they do most of the time, what happens when the day comes when they don't?

Another example that I could have used was law enforcement. Could you imagine officers coming out to break up a fight, and all of a sudden they start shooting in on people, putting people in the guard, mounting others, trying to maneuver for a better position? It sounds ridiculous. And cops would never be trained to handle a situation in that manner. Ever notice that cops like to end altercations as soon as possible? Their tactics are quick and efficient, like anyone who wants to survive should be.

I have fight footage of Rickson, best of all BJJ practitioners, on the ground for nearly a half an hour against guys who's grappling skills weren't even close to his. And if it were so likely that a decent grappler would take the other person down and gain the top position, as you put it, then why does that not happen for most of the GREAT grapplers? I've lived right near Relson's academy in Hawaii, and he with his own mouth has said that BJJ is better suited for controlled situations and competition. I live in NY and have been to Renzo Craig Kukuk's school. These guys are great at ground grappling, but in a situation that didn't involve a mat and an entourage, they know that their skills don't equip them for the streets of New York. And they've stated that fact.

You are correct in advocating running, as any sane person would, but if you HAD to fight, and HAD to be subjected to those elements like lots of people, broken glass, you'd find yourself on the ground rolling around trying to get the upper hand. Which brings us back to the above exercise. If you think you can handle the exercise, give it a shot and then come back and tell me how well you did. And make sure the guy you mount or put in your guard is in good shape, and 30lbs heavier.

When I was a bouncer in my early 20's, I've seen many fights go to the ground. The interesting insight that this afforded me was to see what happened to the guys who's friends didn't get there first. They usually get stomped half to death and can't get up on their own. On the other hand, guys who managed to stay up while getting jumped usually got away with the worst being a broken nose, black eye or a broken jaw. Why? Because when you're upright, a punch or kick to the face moves your head or body back so that your head or body doesn't take the full brunt of the blow. On the ground, if you stomp or punch someone, there's no give. There's no room for your head or body to move so that it can shun some of the impact. A better example is getting hit by a car going 20mph while crossing the street, and a car going 20mph running into you head on while your back is up against a brick wall. You may walk away after getting hit by a car moving 20mph while crossing the street, but son, you ain't getting up after getting pinned on a wall by car traveling at 20mph.

Now you might understand this, and you might not. But it really doesn't matter. I can guarantee that if you try that exercise you'll have all the proof you need.

[Uke]

Oh and by the way, 90% of street fights go to the ground, while 90% of self defense situations do not. I thought that was relevant here.

And if you think you are going to shoot in on a bigger guy and take him down like you would someone your own size, you are a dojo warrior who hasn't been in the real world.


You haven't even gotten to see the effectiveness of BJJ in years. In the first couple of UFCs, it was fighter vs fighter. Now with weight classes and pads, you haven't really seen how BJJ would really do today. We saw that with Royce Gracie vs Kimo, a guy who was tough and bigger but not nearly as skilled as Royce. That fight right there is a beautiful illustration of what BJJ would look like against a bigger man who has any amount of athleticism and strength. Kimo had even studied martial arts. Yet he pummled a top tier Gracie fighter.

You all can go on thinking that what you do in the streets will play out the same as what you do on the mat. But anyone who disputes what I've said hasn't tried that exercise yet. And probably won't out of fear that I'm right.

[covaliufan]

Umm, actually.....Royce won the fight with Kimo. Kimo tapped out.

And, for the record, I have taken down people much bigger than me. People who don't know how the wrestle can have a really, really hard time stopping a take down from someone smaller than them.

Who exactly do you think you're talking to here? No one thinks a bjj'er can go around beating up gangs of knife wielding thugs. No one thinks starting fights is a good idea. What part of "if I feel threatened on the street I'm going to try to run away" did you not get? And as to your "exercise," I fully agree with you that if we arbitarily put me into a fight where someone is in my guard holding a knife, with two friends on the way, I'll probably get killed. So what's your point?

You done your sprints yet?

[SamuraiGuy]

Im not gonna try that exercise, because I know I would probably get written all over in marker... and its not worth my time to go see for myself... heres a thought though.

My BJJ instructor can beat me in any way he wants in less than 5 seconds.. literally less than 5 seconds, and this is No-Gi were talking about.

Say I had a knife in my pocket... its gonna have some form of protection on it, so I would either have to flip it out, or pull of the casing, im not gonna walk around with a blade chopping through my leg... but even for this scenario we will say ive got a knife in my pocket, with no covering.

Me and instructor get into a streetfight, I throw a punch at him, and he uses any one of the things he knows... were saying grappling here, so I will negate his boxing/striking skills.... he throws me on the ground using any of the takedowns he knows, double leg, single leg, and im sure alot more... he doesnt have problems taking many people down in class.

Say he is taking me down, im not thinking... reach into my pocket pull my knife out and stab this guy.. im thinking... oh shit this guy is picking me up and smashing me on the concrete...

after being smashed on the concrete... it would take him less than 5 seconds to choke the life out of me, break my arms, or turn me into a pretzel. Even if we had started on our knees facing each other this guy can do this to me... nevermind after he just slammed me onto the concrete, asphalt, watever.

Now you say the top masters take longer than a minute to control/beat someone with bjj. This guy is a brown belt and it takes him less than 5 seconds to beat me, and I take BJJ, and Submission wrestling.... how do you think he would do against someone who doesnt know what a gaurd is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

now for another point.... if you are getting attacked by 3 guys.... and one has a knife... as in your example... you can be standing up, on your knees, on the ground, doing a backflip... I dont care, chances are you will die... I wouldnt knock BJJ and say its not a good style for the "street" because you cant fight off a guy with a knife, and 2 of his friends....

Tell me, which style do you learn to fight off this guy with a knife and 2 of his friends, Rex Kwon Doe?

Even if you could neutralize the guy with the knife, his buddies just pull you down from behind and kick your face in... I'm sorry but this is a pointless and moronic thread....

With my Brown Belt example, (not close to the best BJJ guy), and the example of 3 (one with a knife) vs 1 = your fucked..... makes your thread...

POINTLESS

[Tom Yum]

Oh and by the way, 90% of street fights go to the ground, while 90% of self defense situations do not. I thought that was relevant here.

And if you think you are going to shoot in on a bigger guy and take him down like you would someone your own size, you are a dojo warrior who hasn't been in the real world.


You haven't even gotten to see the effectiveness of BJJ in years. In the first couple of UFCs, it was fighter vs fighter. Now with weight classes and pads, you haven't really seen how BJJ would really do today. We saw that with Royce Gracie vs Kimo, a guy who was tough and bigger but not nearly as skilled as Royce. That fight right there is a beautiful illustration of what BJJ would look like against a bigger man who has any amount of athleticism and strength. Kimo had even studied martial arts. Yet he pummled a top tier Gracie fighter.

You all can go on thinking that what you do in the streets will play out the same as what you do on the mat. But anyone who disputes what I've said hasn't tried that exercise yet. And probably won't out of fear that I'm right.

You've got some good points.

If someone is skilled in BJJ and is passionate enough about it to learn its entire scope and has been doing it forever, they will be able to handle themselves well.

The average person has ZERO takedown defense, assuming you are starting with both guys empty handed and an experienced grappler vs. a regular guy who occasionally works out. Some wrestlers and probably BJJ guys to can shoot in super quick, not to mention an effective set up, that by the time the average guy realizes where he is, he's allready been speared into the concrete neck first and the wrestler/BJJ guy is working on the pound part of the ground n' pound. Watch Shamrock vs. Zinoviev....ok, its in the ring, but both guys are fighting and Zinoviev is in great condition and a professional fighter.

You're assuming that every BJJ guy is going to fight like he's doing sport JJ and doesn't train in other arts. Your points apply well in that case. If the BJJ guy is slightly motivated and has experience, whose to say that he's not carrying his own weapon and won't integrate his weapon with his grappling.

Anyhow, decent points made.

[Garland]

If you survive, you'll be the baddest street fighter on this here board and we will all bow to your street fighter knowledge.

Streetfightaaaaaa...
Straight up Sonny Chiba.
AS to HOW to pick a fight...
I've got a couple good ideas...walk around dressed as Hitler in a mini-skirt, and talk shit to everyone you see...or...like Napoleon Dynamite and walk into people, and not appologise.

I've done both.


cocaine's a hell of a drug.

[Garland]

...ah....me funny.


But in all seriousness, you guys are fucking dumb.
I would be the ONE with the KNIFE.
okay...that makes more sense...
grapple or trap to slice the shit out of kid #1 before he can pull his shit, and then bonzai charge the other two and grab and stab.

I used to play around with local kids, and would bareknuckle box 2 at a time. So I know a punk can punch me with two people, and it might jar me a bit or trip me up...but if I've GOT THE KNIFE...they're SKREWED.

[bigboywasim]

BJJ is one of the most effective martial arts to learn. You seem to not understand the importance of BJJ in a street fight. I have seen some street fights and a lot of fights at school. 90% or so of those fights go to the ground. When you are on the ground I tell you that you will which you know BJJ. Look when it comes to weapons and guns then even if you Bruce Lee their is not that much you can do. The same goes with being badly out numbered. The best thing to do is to avoid a street fight or run. You have nothing to prove to anyone. You can prove yourself on the mat. I do BJJ now and I got in a fight with two twins at school. At that time I didn't have my friends with me. I tried to avoid the fight but they jumped me. I am a big guy so I puched one away took the other one down. I almost broke his arm then I did the same to the other one but this time i fell on him. I weigh like 280 so I crushed him like that and hit him in the face couple of times. All this happened in like 7 seconds and I won. I didn't even get in trouble because I had people say that I was defending myself. It is true that against a lot of oponents BJJ is not that effective but you still can do some damage and all martial arts half their weaknesses but that don't mean you can't use the art to your advantage. In a street fight the two best martial arts to know are MT and BJJ. These are also the two styles that dominate the MMA. You will usually not have weapons on you so that why I didn't say a weapon style in particular.

[Uke]

You've got some good points.

If someone is skilled in BJJ and is passionate enough about it to learn its entire scope and has been doing it forever, they will be able to handle themselves well.

The average person has ZERO takedown defense, assuming you are starting with both guys empty handed and an experienced grappler vs. a regular guy who occasionally works out. Some wrestlers and probably BJJ guys to can shoot in super quick, not to mention an effective set up, that by the time the average guy realizes where he is, he's allready been speared into the concrete neck first and the wrestler/BJJ guy is working on the pound part of the ground n' pound. Watch Shamrock vs. Zinoviev....ok, its in the ring, but both guys are fighting and Zinoviev is in great condition and a professional fighter.

You're assuming that every BJJ guy is going to fight like he's doing sport JJ and doesn't train in other arts. Your points apply well in that case. If the BJJ guy is slightly motivated and has experience, whose to say that he's not carrying his own weapon and won't integrate his weapon with his grappling.

Anyhow, decent points made.

Many of the people are glossing over what I wrote. 4 people, including yourself. Put a man in your guard or mount him. Have 2 friends at the other end of the field, and see how long it takes you to get free, and see how much you get marked up. The marks represent cuts for those of you who haven't figured that out yet. And for those of you who have, what other training are you talking about switching to? BJJ standup fighting? Because thats what this topic is about: Brazilian jujitsu. I've never stated that BJJ doesn't have its merits. I simply wrote that as a sole system of self defense it would get you killed.

Now for those of you who aren't bright enough to have gotten that from what is written, I cannot help you. Its there, plain as day. Its actually the topic. If you're doing muay thai to fight, how is that me assuming you'll stick to BJJ? If you're doing Muay thai, then you're doing muay thai, not BJJ. I also stated that BJJ is better suited to teach you how to escape the guard and mount, and reverse submissions and chokes. That way, you can get on your feet and do whatever you do. Run, fight, talk trash, whatever. The point is that altercations happen almost in an instant, and there doesn't have to be more than one person there for you to get you @ss kicked. Nor does there have to be a weapon. Those were only reality scenarios for you to play out.

And assuming what other people know is foolish. You always assume that the other man knows more. The "average" guy knows what he knows, not what we think he should know.

I'll debate. I won't argue. Most of you have let you emotions blind you, and only a few will acknowledge the obvious. If you feel as though you've found everything you need to know, then good for you. I took the name "Uke" to say that I am a student for life, regardless of the fact that I've been training longer than some of you have been alive.

I am always willing to learn and see from another perspective. But I realize now that some of you here are children, and won't benefit from this debate. Hopefully, others will read the original post on this topic and try the exercise, because posting here hardly goes toward proving what works and what doesn't. I don't advocate being a "streetfighter". I advocate staying safe from them.

Anyway, thank you for the dialogue, Tom Yum. I don't need people to agree with me in order to enjoy a healthy debate, but as long as you have something of value to say, we will always have a very one.

[LoneHusky]

You've got some good points.

If someone is skilled in BJJ and is passionate enough about it to learn its entire scope and has been doing it forever, they will be able to handle themselves well.

The average person has ZERO takedown defense, assuming you are starting with both guys empty handed and an experienced grappler vs. a regular guy who occasionally works out. Some wrestlers and probably BJJ guys to can shoot in super quick, not to mention an effective set up, that by the time the average guy realizes where he is, he's allready been speared into the concrete neck first and the wrestler/BJJ guy is working on the pound part of the ground n' pound. Watch Shamrock vs. Zinoviev....ok, its in the ring, but both guys are fighting and Zinoviev is in great condition and a professional fighter.

You're assuming that every BJJ guy is going to fight like he's doing sport JJ and doesn't train in other arts. Your points apply well in that case. If the BJJ guy is slightly motivated and has experience, whose to say that he's not carrying his own weapon and won't integrate his weapon with his grappling.

Anyhow, decent points made.

Well said.

[covaliufan]

Uke, cut the holier than thou nonsense, that's the refuge of those who are pissed because they don't actually have a reasonable argument. I've offered a counter argument to everything you've said; if you're actually interested in discussion, debate, and helping increase people's knowledge, respond to my posts.

I also couldn't help but notice that now you've changed the rules of your game; we can do your football field test starting mounted on the person? That I'd be willing to take you up on; I can get off of someone and start running much faster than he can pull a knife, and though I'll break no records I bet I can lose his friends given a one hundred yard start.

But anyway: respond to people's criticism of your points, or not, of course it's up to you; just don't expect to change anybody's mind if you consider covering your ears and chanting "I don't argue with children, I don't argue with children," a reasoned response.