So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?

[SamuraiGuy]

Yeah, I have made assumptions, and I had to because you make sure that you don't take a stance in a debate which allows you the freedom to flounder. You have made very good points in the past though, and still continue to make interesting arguments at times.



I don't doubt that they are serious if not fanatical when they train. However, they are not training as if their lives depended on it. Otherwise MMA would look a whole lot different. Watching a soccer mom fight another woman because she flirts with her husband will look entirely different when that same woman is fighting someone who is trying to abduct her children. The difference in adrenaline and desperation will be evident when hair-pulling and slapping is replaced with eye gouging, biting and using keys to stab soft tissue targets. And if you don't think that adrenaline plays a huge role in the difference in these scenarios, then I won't insult you, but I will say that you've never been in a fight with a stranger that was anything more than a shoving match or a posturing situation. If you had, you'd know exactly what I'm talking about.



If your Krav Maga instructor told you to go to the ground, regardless of who's around, then you need to find another instructor. I agree someone should go to the ground, but it shouldn't be you. Once you get into close quarters I don't care who it is you're fighting, you better use what you've learned to hurt, unbalance, blind and choke that man off of his feet. Volunteering to lay on your back is your choice, but a poor one. If you think that rolling on the ground is the only way to put another man there and control him then you haven't learned as much krav maga as you may have thought. Either that or your instructor isn't qualified and told you to "just lay down" because he didn't have the answers and hoped the other guy didn't know ground fighting or have a weapon. Kneeling, stomping and restraining are not the mount or the guard. And just because I have my opponent on the ground doesn't mean its ground fighting if I'm not laying on the ground. And SamuraiGuy, you'll never know beforehand what the other guy knows unless he's your friend or famous. So the very reasoning that you would "automatically" know to make it a ground fight because the other guy strikes better is another of the many assumptions that you have made. It doesn't matter if you used Roy Jones as an example, because it didn't matter who you used, they'd still have to be known to you for you to make that judgement call.

And no good self defense system predicates itself on one strike. I never wrote "just punch him in the face and knock the guy out" at any point. There have been people who have taken Mike Tyson's shots, so I'm not going to believe that a punch from me is going to do better. But that doesn't mean that you're supposed to make your situation into a bout by "wrastlin'" around on the ground.

And self defense is about the fastest way to hurt a person, no matter if you phrase it politically correct so not to scare away paying students who may be turned off by the reality of self defense. That's why the concept of "the closest weapon to the closest target" says what it does. Unless your instructor doesn't teach that either?

I didn't expect anyone here to go to any school to investigate. I know that many of the people here are not serious and are only posting to just belong. Some people here don't even write about martial arts. They just sit back in the cheap seats and comment, usually about other comments and not martial arts. No one here has to agree with anything I say. I don't expect all of you to even understand half of what I say as many of you didn't even train until you saw the UFC, and most of your understanding of what you think real fighting is comes from watching events like it.

The disservice that the UFC and events like it provide is lulling inexperienced, enthusiastic youngsters into believing that they can have an intimate knowledge of fighting without ever having fought. Which is sad, because even though many of you here have already admitted to never having fought or even sparred full contact you continue to argue with authority because you think that these toughman tournaments have afforded you some real insight without you having to risk getting hurt. You can't tap out from a punch or a kick thrown with bad intentions, and that's why many of you embrace rolling around on the floor as the best.

If you don't find out if what you study works outside the conditions you train in and you rely on people on television to prove your worth, you're not a martial artist or a fighter. You're a voyeur. Someone who lives vicariously through the small percentage of winning competitors in order to feel validated. This applies to everybody.

Uke, you kinda missed my points.. well... you sorta got them...

You all said that I wouldnt know what the guy is best at, and thats true... what im saying.. is if you know someones not gonna run up and kick the back of your head in... and you know YOU are better at something.. you want to put it there... look at it like this.... Royce Gracie walking down the street... dooo da dooo... Roy Jones Jr (classic striking example sorry if its repetitive)... walks up to him and pushes him.... do you think royce gracie... is gonna say... lets try to figure out what his style is... keep him standing.. dont want to go to the ground because he might be amazing at it... than proceed to be knocked out...

now thats a little extreme example... but think about it this way...

you have... 7 years of grappling... and 2 years of.. boxing/kickboxing...

you fight the unkown man.. one on one... you KNOW you personally are better on the ground than on your feet, so you take it to the ground... its a risk you take because you may be fighting a guy with 15 years of grappling experience.. but then again you never know... you could be fighting a golden gloves champion...

my point is I would play it to my own personal strengths and not stand up for the sake of standing up... now I realize this is all negated if theres more than one of them...

The Krav Maga guy didnt advocate going to the ground... sorry if I typed it that way... hmm... it was more of a... you should feel comfortable on the ground.. and feel confident that if its one on one and you know no one is around you should be able to beat the guy, my mistake...

for instance (im not sure if your familiar with Krav Maga so bear with me) a escape from a standing side head lock, and when completed the person is on their back basically.. could be a bit to the side or whatever... now from this position... you can easily step over into the mount... especially if you transition it well... know what your going for.. but thats not the krav maga way... instead of transitioning you either create distance (ie run your ass away), or move around to his head and start kicking...

oh and I believe... earlier on you mentioned something about... getting hit ... or if you ever take a hard shot its a shock to most people.... well I've had my face kicked both standing and while I was on my back (granted it was mma, but it was still a full on kick to the face) I can honestly say it didnt really bother me... obviously it wasnt fun... and I didnt like it... but it wasnt a huge deal or anything...

okay shit I might just keep rambling on and I have a football game to play tommorow so I need to sleep now.... thats all for now I guess...

[SamuraiGuy]

oh I forgot, for your "freedom to flounder" comment... thats due to the fact that I respect both ways of thinking...

I think the Krav Maga mindset is effective.. and the awareness/self defense teachings they provide are useful... but I also believe MMA is a great way to go, a more fun way to go, and you get to legally fight people, so its not all that shabby....

I guess you can call me a fence sitter, but I just see both sides... it may seem like im arguing for mma, and most of the time I am due to the way its gone.. but I see both sides of the coin..

Hmmm I'm not sure if this is still on topic...

before the thread was "bjj isnt effective as a stand alone art in street fights" not your exact words but I believe thats what you were trying to imply...

now, at least iwth me and you... its become self defense vs mma.... just interesting... if you want to go solely at bjj than ill shut up in the future , just lemme know.

[Tant01]

Hi,

Jumped in here kind of late and don't have time to read the whole thread... but I agree with Uke. Hopefully Uke and I are on the same page, as I said I don't have time to read thru the threads.

In REAL life self defense situations BJJ is not a good self defense art, as a stand alone.

Krav Maga in my opinion is the best way of self defense, more importantly PRATICAL self defense.

In a real life situation, and I ahve been in a couple, I want to take out the opposition as fast as possible.

The quickest way is NOT to go to the ground, especially if there is more than one opposition.

A REAL life situation doesn't happen like you see in UFC or in BJJ matches, that's mostly sport.

What I'm talking about is REAL situations. An example being you're walking to the parking lot at night after work, getting ready to get into your car and someone confronts you.

.......
Marc

"Krav Maga as taught in the US. is tae bo with an attitude"

Mark Tripp.

The assumptions here about BJJ are astounding! I realize the buttflopp jutsu is the typical tactic employed by the stylists but what about that SUPERIOR position? You know, the other one where you're the guy ON TOP?

Never go to the ground? Like you can avoid gravity and the typical obstructions and structures found in the ENVIRONMENT you lay claim to (not the ARENA). REAL? Give me a break! One of the favorite common tactics of the BIG brawlers is to slam you on the ground. Like Krav Maga can stop a train right? Practical and effective, eh?

BJJ techniques are from Judo. You think you need to lie on your back to make them work? Like being on the ground is a "RANGE" of it own? Sheeesh... The whole idea of getting them off their feet is to eliminate their mobility. Why bash some stupid assed punk with your mighty KM in a violent rage untill he is unconsious when you can slam them on the deck and detain/ restrain them until you get some help? It looks more CIVIL to bystanders that might testify how the victims in the fight were the guys YOU BEAT TO A PULP!

UKE has little credibility here. Agree with something worth a crap next time.

[Uke]

Tant01

I don't have any credibility here. And neither do you or anyone else for that matter. Why make yourself look childish by attacking mpossoff because he agreed with what I wrote? Just let what you have to say stand on its on and don't be a clown.

The assumptions here about BJJ are astounding! I realize the buttflopp jutsu is the typical tactic employed by the stylists but what about that SUPERIOR position? You know, the other one where you're the guy ON TOP?

How many fights have you seen a guy jump right into the mount? Its amazing how you(Tant01) pretend that its so simple to just take the mount position. You speak as if the Gracies and Machados prefer to go to the guard when they could simply slam a man on the deck and just take the mount. Afterall, like you said, BJJ comes from judo, so the Gracies should be able to do that right? But they don't. They always wind up in the guard trying to stay safe until the other guy offers a limb due to inexperience. I wonder why? Hmm....

Never go to the ground? Like you can avoid gravity and the typical obstructions and structures found in the ENVIRONMENT you lay claim to (not the ARENA). REAL? Give me a break! One of the favorite common tactics of the BIG brawlers is to slam you on the ground. Like Krav Maga can stop a train right? Practical and effective, eh?

Clearly you're one of those guys who believes that most fights go to the ground. While you assumed wrong, I do agree that one of the guys in a fight should go to the ground. The other guy! If you're seriously on this forum talking about how you'd just begin throwing non-compliant men who have every intention to hurt you like it was a Steven Segal movie, then if you ever did have some credibility here ...you just lost it. No self defense system, I repeat no competent self defense system would advocate volunteering to go to the ground, on top or otherwise because weapons are the major concern of any system that addresses survival. And as you pointed out "The whole idea of getting them off their feet is to eliminate their mobility". But on the ground you don't have the necessary mobility to deal with a blade either, Einstein.

But thanks for supporting my points, even if inadvertantly.

[Tant01]

Clearly you only SEE what you like. You know nothing about me.

I do not support your points at all "professor". The KOSEN style Judo practice by the Gracies' was developed to prevent being THROWN down. It is more suitable for women's SD or rape prevention than street fighting IMHO.

The techniques you see as submissions are basic limb destruction techniques that happen to be useful for disarming the blade Einstein. Don't tell me about knives!~


You have no IDEA who I am?


COOL! THAT'S JUST THE WAY I LIKE IT!!!


Stay safe!

[Tant01]

I don't have any credibility here. .............

VERY GOOD! The first grain of truth you have typed! I gave you "very little"... thank you for showing everyone how well you read too!

[Sensei Saki]

Ayuh. What was the second?Yes but did I accept it?You are quite welcome!

Your purpose is showing everyone how well you read.Who is the best robot?

[LoneHusky]

Hey tanto this is OT but do you wear gear like this http://www.hatch-corp.com/lawpages/ks16_19.html, http://www.hatch-corp.com/lawpages/kh4500.html to prevent being cut?

[Tant01]

Saki Sensei!!! You're not a real ROBOT but I'd do ya...

[Tant01]

Hey tanto this is OT but do you wear gear like this http://www.hatch-corp.com/lawpages/ks16_19.html, http://www.hatch-corp.com/lawpages/kh4500.html to prevent being cut?

No. They look cool and may prevent lacerations but the impact of steel will still leave welts. I just tape the sharp edges. Being cut feels a lot like being HIT.


I just had a couple dozen stitches in my right index finger (yesterday) from a self inflicted knife wound. I must be getting old... this is the first time I have ever cut myself THAT bad. It only takes a few millimeters of misjudgment to bleed A LOT!!!

Lesson, don't hold on to your target for ballistic cutting. Have someone ELSE hold it!

[BoarSpear]

Lesson, don't hold on to your target for ballistic cutting. Have someone ELSE hold it!

you want someone to hold 'em down fer ya?


We usually try to suspend our targets from something instead of someone...

Nailing meat up for meat cuts is always enlightening...

[Tant01]

you want someone to hold 'em down fer ya?


We usually try to suspend our targets from something instead of someone...

Nailing meat up for meat cuts is always enlightening... :

Sure BOARSPEAR, you'll hold it for me, right? That was a JOKE! Gloves might have helped? I was momentarily careless with a sharp tool. It takes a wake up like this for us old complacent knifers once in a while...


One of the tricks or techniques with the tanto is performed with your attacker's tanto. It never leaves his hand and yet ends up in his armpit? Go figure... Guess disarming is optional? Some guys just won't let go>>

[BoarSpear]

Sure BOARSPEAR, you'll hold it for me, right? That was a JOKE! Gloves might have helped? I was momentarily careless with a sharp tool. It takes a wake up like this for us old complacent knifers once in a while...

NO SHIT?? I was joking as well, i aint holdin nobody down while ya stab 'em

One of the tricks or techniques with the tanto is performed with your attacker's tanto. It never leaves his hand and yet ends up in his armpit? Go figure... Guess disarming is optional? Some guys just won't let go>>

Tantojutsu fun stuff...

[Tant01]

Tantojutsu fun stuff...

Tantojutsu? ...


The Japanese had that age old debate about cutting Vs. thrusting. Tsukiwaza is the way to go. Unless you don't REALLY want to kill them. Then you should work the Jutsu. Letting them live is so much more humiliating. And less MESSY!! We tend to favor the wounding that bleeds internally. That's literally and figuratively.

[BoarSpear]

The cut Vs thrust debate is silly, IMHO. all you need to do is look at nature, what do the the dangerous animals all kill with?........ The thrust Even the big cats rely on teeth to kill and the mighty eagle? or hawk? THE BEAK!! but this article on the praying mantis killing the humminbird proves it best http://www.birdwatchersdigest.com/si...irdwireJul2005