So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?

[kiddbjj]

something that happened to me...

i've been following this thread for awhile and thought i'd weigh in after something that happened the other night.

me and my girl were walking down the street friday night in the city. across the street we noticed a group of about ten-15 guys, all looked like they were drunk, really rowdy and all crowding around a dude that was lying on the concrete. i thought they were kicking him but it was actually a street performer dick that was wrapped in a sheet and pretending to be dead (or something to that effect). there was a guy standing on a box next to him yelling religious stuff at the group of drunk guys.

i wanted to avoid the situation completely becasue the drunks looked like they were going to turn on the religious guy (heaps of yelling, swearing etc) but as usual my girl wanted to have a look. anyway the point of the story was that i thought to myself if any of these guys start grabbing or touching my wife i'm going to be in for a real shit fight. i do BJJ and i have to admit i felt very unprepared for the situation.

my gripe is not with BJJ but with myself for not forseeing this type of scenario and thinking about how i would approach it. when i used to train kung fu we used to do heaps of multiple opponent scenarios but since doing BJJ (over 2 years) i have done none at all.

i agree with what was said above, BJJ is great for ideal situations, but REALLY how often does an ideal situation come up? (ideal defined as one-on-one, no weapons, no friends jumping in etc)

*on the street - prob. never, too many people and unknowns
*in a homeinvasion/break in - prob. never, there would most likely be more than one person and weapons
*car jacking- maybe one person but highly likely a weapon. also doesn't suit grappling from my car seat

sure these are just a few scenarios but they all have one thing in common - more than one person or weapons

i think the sport vs street arguement misses the point, to me its more about one-on-one vs one-on many with the possibility of weapons

i agree that an mma guy would have great skills and fitness for the street but if i had a guy that trained pure mma for a year and a guy that did nothing but multiple opponent sparring and scenario training for a year i'd put my money on the multiple opponent guy. he might just hit and run or shove and run but at least he would have some 'plan' for the scenario i mentioned above.

long story short i'm thinking about diversifying my training
cheers

[BoarSpear]

Good observation, good luck

[jubaji]

long story short i'm thinking about diversifying my training
cheers

Good luck. If you find someone who tells you he can teach you how to beat 10 - 15 guys, hold on to your wallet and get out.

[Uke]

Tant01

You speak like an authority on the subject but you still don't get it. Jujutsu is dead. What survived was gathered from the leading Jujutsu masters and grouped under the umbrella of JUDO. The difference between the two is more philosophical than anything else but hardly worthy of a history lesson.

I think Kano deserves much more credit for his contribution to the globalization of the art.

Read this: http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/judo.html

The author is a real authority on Judo and Jujutsu, Unlike some of us here...


On Jujutsu and it's modernization: http://www.judoinfo.com/tomiki2.htm


It might be nice to think you know something but it's better if you have more than a clue.

To understand (really) you need a perspective on the spirit of Budo. I'm just not seeing it folks...

Show me! It's not that hard. Quit taking everything personally and just explore it...

Enjoy.

How is jujitsu dead? How could it have possibly have died if all of Kano's training was under jujitsu masters? It never died, regardless of what myths you may have been taught. Even the man who beat Kano and all of his students was a jujitsu man. And it was he(Tanabe) who is directly responsible for BJJ, not Kano. You speak of budo and talking with authority, but you post links to other people's thoughts and experiences to argue your so-called points because you lack the knowledge to do it yourself. Its not that you offered any additional information or found what I've written to be inaccurate, its just your ignorance that fuels your desire to argue in this situation, whether you're wrong or right.

Tell Morihei Ueshiba, Henry Seishiro Okazaki, Kiyose Nakae, Wally Jay, Florendo Visitacion, George Kirby, Moses Powell, Shoto Tanemura, Ronald Dunkin, Antonio Pereira, Helio Gracie and each and every one of Kano's instructors that they didn't know what jujitsu is, but you and your internet link do.

Just because judo grew in popularity doesn't mean that it replaced everything that predated it for thousands of years. Everything found in judo can be found in jujitsu, but not everything found in jujitsu can be found in judo. So how does everything else fall under judo's umbrella? Again, you make more ignorant statements and hope that no one notices. Unlike you, I don't even have to speculate as to what you don't know Tant01, because you do a great job of showing it on your own. But you'll probably blame the internet article that you got your information from, right?

Lastly, I don't take what you say personally. By what you write, you're still angry because of our earlier words and now you desperately look for opportunities to vent.

Good luck with that.

[cam427]

Uke,

Your example "An evolution would be what Ueshiba Sensei did by mastering circular motion and becoming proficient at it WITHOUT having to use strength or strikes." is an example of evolution (You gave me the answer).

As to me being a proponent of MMA, that is true. BUT I studied Aikido for several years under the best instructor in Australia (6th Dan). I also studied Jujitsu for several years under the one of the most senior JJ instructors (also sixth dan) in Ireland. I actually trained under these guys not just in a club where they were the grand master but someone else did the teaching. The reason I am now studying MMA is because I found it to be the most honest, effective style and one that suits me and my training objectives.

As far as BJJ being effective for the street, I believe that all arts have some value and arts that improve athleticism are especially good. Often in real life it is your athleticism (speed, strength, focus) that will save you. I know that most TMA people like to disagree with this but if you look at any real fight (I like the first three UFC's as my example) you see that even guys with 20 years of traditional MA resort to athleticism when enough pressure is applied (and I am discounting the fights that involved Royce as no one had seen the ground work then).

Do I think that BJJ (alone) is the best art for street fighting. No. But I dont think it should be dismissed out of hand and someone who does another style should not tell someone who does BJJ what they would do under certain circumstances.

Cam

PS: The reason I like to disagree with you is because I think you are arrogant and I dont like you. As you noted I agreed with many of the things you said in that particular post but I think this entire thread is arrogant and pretentious.

[Uke]

kiddbjj

long story short i'm thinking about diversifying my training
cheers

Being that you're a bjj player and you wrote what you did for the reasons that you gave, I take my hat off to you. Its not that you agreed, but more that you played through different scenarios and actually came to your own conclusions based on logic and not ego.

Good luck.

[mpossoff]

Hi all,

I'd like to add that Judo can be a great art to learn for self defense.

What I like about Judo is the "stand up" aspect of it's grappling.

Like I said, in a self defense situation and NOT an ideal situation you are better off having perception and knowing what's going on around you.

Judo gives you that.

Marc

[Uke]

cam427

Your example "An evolution would be what Ueshiba Sensei did by mastering circular motion and becoming proficient at it WITHOUT having to use strength or strikes." is an example of evolution (You gave me the answer).

I didn't ask you to repeat my answer as your own. I asked you for your own answer, which you still have not yet given for the third time.

Do I think that BJJ (alone) is the best art for street fighting. No.

And the topic here is what? "So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?" So as I told you earlier, if you read what you write you'd see that you're arguing because you don't like my opinions, not because you think they're incorrect or inaccurate. Which is basically throwing a tantrum because you don't like the presentation.

PS: The reason I like to disagree with you is because I think you are arrogant and I dont like you. As you noted I agreed with many of the things you said in that particular post but I think this entire thread is arrogant and pretentious.

Who cares who you like? I don't come to message boards to make friends. And if I've made enemies its due to their own feelings of inadequacy, because I've never directly insulted any of you. I have yet to see anything you've disagreed with me about, yet you call the topic arrogant and pretentious. If you've agreed on most everything, doesn't that make you arrogant and pretentious too? If me discussing the topic has made you not like me then you can:

A)Grow up, get over it and continue posting about the subject matter at hand

-or-

B)Act like the many idiots here who only stick around to write insults and critique the posts and not the facts in them.

I don't believe in having to hold your hand in order to express my opinion. And if I'm viewed as arrogant because of the beliefs that I have then so be it. If you actually read what many others here have written, you'd see that they agreed with what I wrote without having to feel burned by the way that I wrote it.

More men cry here than on the Oprah Winfrey show.

[cam427]

I didn't ask you to repeat my answer as your own. I asked you for your own answer, which you still have not yet given for the third time.

I didn't realise that this was a question of if I could personally name an evolution rather than if evolution had occurred. This is an example of an evolution (which you kindly provided).

And the topic here is what? "So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?" So as I told you earlier, if you read what you write you'd see that you're arguing because you don't like my opinions, not because you think they're incorrect or inaccurate. Which is basically throwing a tantrum because you don't like the presentation.

You should read what I said more carefully. I did not say I agreed that it was not effective, I said that I do not think it is the MOST effective (I actually used the word best). There is a big difference.

I am arguing with you because I do not think you are in a position to make the statements you are making. It is nothing to do with how much I like or dislike what you say (or you personally). If I came on this board and said that I thought Jujitsu was crap having never really done any (or having done a small amount, or seen it on TV) you would ask me how I came to the conclusion and if I started making assumptions about what a jujitsu guy would do under certain circumstances, because I saw him do something in a completly different set of circumstances, you would feel obliged to respond. I dont believe that you have enough BJJ experience to know what a BJJ person would do in every situation.

Who cares who you like? I don't come to message boards to make friends. And if I've made enemies its due to their own feelings of inadequacy, because I've never directly insulted any of you. I have yet to see anything you've disagreed with me about, yet you call the topic arrogant and pretentious. If you've agreed on most everything, doesn't that make you arrogant and pretentious too? If me discussing the topic has made you not like me then you can:

A)Grow up, get over it and continue posting about the subject matter at hand

-or-

B)Act like the many idiots here who only stick around to write insults and critique the posts and not the facts in them.

I don't believe in having to hold your hand in order to express my opinion. And if I'm viewed as arrogant because of the beliefs that I have then so be it. If you actually read what many others here have written, you'd see that they agreed with what I wrote without having to feel burned by the way that I wrote it.

More men cry here than on the Oprah Winfrey show.

I have given several reasons why I disagree with what you are saying and the fact that you are not really in a position to say them. If you cannot read then I am afraid I cannot help you. A person does not have to disagree with every word you say to disagree with some of your points (as I do).

It is not the discussion of the topic that has made me not like you. I have had this discussion with many people and still get on fine with them. Boarspear is an example of someone who has uses totally different training methods and thinking to me and yet we respect each other because we can see the others point of view and reasons for training this way. It is your poor discussion style that I dislike. I have asked several questions that you have just pretended never existed (I can't be bothered going back over 20+ pages to find them). I have also answered many of your questions yet you seem to not see the answer. Your first paragraph that I have quoted above is an example of this. You asked me to show some evolution and I did using an example you provided. You also like to throw in thinly veiled insults. I used one of them in the last paragraph (If you cannot read then I am afraid I cannot help you.). Makes it hard to respond in a factual way when people are throwing insults your way doesn't it.

You are viewed as arrogant not because of your beliefs but because of your non-acceptance of others beliefs and their validity. I put this down to the fact that you have trained in an art that has lost a lot of it's credibility with the masses in the last ten years and you are upset that you have spent your whole life training in it. If this were not true then why would you be on a forum for BJJ and MMA trying to sell it as a better style.

I thought the comment about Oprah was pretty funny (but this does not mean that I agree with everything you have ever said)

Cam

[Uke]

mpossoff

Hi all,

I'd like to add that Judo can be a great art to learn for self defense.

What I like about Judo is the "stand up" aspect of it's grappling.

Like I said, in a self defense situation and NOT an ideal situation you are better off having perception and knowing what's going on around you.

Judo gives you that.

Marc

I agree with you. The ability to throw an opponent to the ground while maintaining your own balance is an asset. You can maintain control without having to go to the mount or guard, and like you said, by standing you are more aware of what's happening and can run. I totally agree with that.

But my question is when do you have an ideal situation outside of sports? Ideal meaning no weapons and no other assailants.

Jail cell? You can be sure that there will only be one other man, but you can't be sure that there won't be a shank.

In an elevator? Unless you stop the elevator in between floors you can't be sure that other assailants can't get involved, and you definitely don't know if a weapon can be introduced.

A staircase? Same as the elevator, except you can't stop the flow of traffic.

Indoor ATM? Same as the staircase.

Getting carjacked? I would just suggest giving up your car. Most people who have the balls to carjack someone are carrying guns, not knives. Take a lesson from what happened to Alex Wong. Just make sure you have insurance and take the loss. If you don't feel comfortable with that, then get OnStar, as they can call the police and tell them exactly where you car is within 3 feet, how fast its going and in what direction.

In a nightclub? You've got to be kidding. Not only are there plenty of people who could get involved, but you'll find all kinds of weapons in a nightclub, not to mention bottles. And having beer in the body gives many people liquid courage, even if its not their fight.

On a bus or subway car? Just as bad as the nightclub.

At the beach? Well if you travel with a posse like the Gracies do you'll probably be fine.

I guess my point is that in most cases, staying on your feet has the advantage. Ideal situations don't seem to exist unless you're dealing with friends or in a sports setting. I'm sure there are stories where a guy got attacked an he beat his attacker with BJJ. But I don't think anyone has stated that it cannot work. I think the point was when all things are considered, its not the smartest or safest choice. And that's the entire point of self defense: Staying safe.

PS Even though we may get sidetracked sometimes, I love the fact that you(mpossoff) make sure that we get back to the topic at hand. Thanks for staying focused.

[cam427]

I think the point was when all things are considered, its not the smartest or safest choice.

Uke,

You seem to have changed your stance.

the above quote is a very different statment from "If you are interested in effective street self defense, DO NOT FOCUS ON BJJ. On the street, it will definitely get you killed." which was your opening statement on this thread.

Are you now saying that this is incorrect and all styles have some value (as I and everyone else have been saying all along)?

Cam

[Uke]

cam427

Cam ...

you've never once asked me anything that I have not answered. Saying that you don't want to go back and find the so-called unaswered questions is a cop out. Unlike many here, I don't gloss over things because I'm not qualified to answer something.

And no one has to be an expert in BJJ to see that even when the top tier players fight they adhere to what I've been writing. Maybe you missed this, but I've been saying that the best way to accurately gauge a thing is to watch the best put it into practice. And we are talking about the best when we discuss the Gracies, the Machados and Nogueira. I don't have to know what you or your instructor can do if the men who you all consider the best cannot do it.

I'm interested in how BoarSpear has expressed his respect for you on this topic in a way that I haven't? In your very first post on this topic, you stated that this whole topic was "pure fantasy" and "pointless". Is that the mutual respect that you were talking about? You've got a lot of nerve talking about arrogance after writing that in your first post here. Don't be a hypocrite. You were offended before I ever responded to anything you wrote, otherwise you wouldn't have started off with that nonsense. And for a pointless debate that's pure fantasy, you sure do show up here alot.

And how could you not know that I posed a question when I wrote it three times clearly as a question? And for you to tell me what I'm qualified in just further demonstrates how you are willing to debate about things you know nothing about.

Do you know what art I train in to say its lost its credibilty? Do you even know who Professor Vee was? Do you know who Dr Moses Powell was? I don't think you do, or you wouldn't be saying the ignorant things that you frequently do. When I wrote that I would find a school near anybody who wanted to have their eyes opened, I was talking about VeeJitsu or Sanuces schools. But you know nothing about those systems because you're a sports competitor. But if you're ever interested in finding out if I'm right or not, just look into them. And if you can't find one, I'll find one for you if there's one near you. Anyone who ever been serious about self defense in the last 50 years knows who my teachers were. Who are your teachers, Cam? My instructors are famous for being excellent fighters, technicians and teachers. Who'd you say your instructors are? I am faithful to what I have learned because it works in all ranges. You won't see me switching up every couple of years like you because some new fad art gains popularity.

MMA guys don't strike good enough to be in K1, and they don't grapple well enough to be in the Abu Dhabi. They train in both striking and grappling but master nothing. So bascially you're just finding new ways to celebrate mediocrity.

And that's not arrogance. That's the actuals, Cam.

And I've always said that that BJJ has value. Anyone here who can read above a third grade level knows that as its in nearly every one of my posts. I've always advocated BJJ as a means to reverse submissions and chokes, and to escape the guard and mount positions and get back to your feet. If you seriously didn't know that I've written that dozens of times on this topic alone, then you did not want to know.

[cam427]

And no one has to be an expert in BJJ to see that even when the top tier players fight they adhere to what I've been writing. Maybe you missed this, but I've been saying that the best way to accurately gauge a thing is to watch the best put it into practice. And we are talking about the best when we discuss the Gracies, the Machados and Nogueira. I don't have to know what you or your instructor can do if the men who you all consider the best cannot do it.

So you are saying that from what you have seen the top guys do in the UFC you can tell what they would do in a self defense situation.

Do you know what art I train in to say its lost its credibilty? Do you even know who Professor Vee was? Do you know who Dr Moses Powell was? I don't think you do, or you wouldn't be saying the ignorant things that you frequently do.

Correct! I have never heard of your instructors. Congratulations.

When I wrote that I would find a school near anybody who wanted to have their eyes opened, I was talking about VeeJitsu or Sanuces schools. But you know nothing about those systems because you're a sports competitor. But if you're ever interested in finding out if I'm right or not, just look into them. And if you can't find one, I'll find one for you if there's one near you.

I can assure you that there is none anywhere near where I live. I know all of the clubs around here because I tried to find a good one when I arrived. I am wondering since it is a style I have never even heard of how effective it actually is. I have never heard anyone here discuss it as an effective style.

Anyone who ever been serious about self defense in the last 50 years knows who my teachers were. Who are your teachers, Cam? My instructors are famous for being excellent fighters, technicians and teachers. Who'd you say your instructors are? I am faithful to what I have learned because it works in all ranges. You won't see me switching up every couple of years like you because some new fad art gains popularity.

I have no idea who your teachers are. Perhaps I am not serious enough, either that or they are not as well known as you think.

MMA guys don't strike good enough to be in K1, and they don't grapple well enough to be in the Abu Dhabi. They train in both striking and grappling but master nothing. So bascially you're just finding new ways to celebrate mediocrity.

And that's not arrogance. That's the actuals, Cam.

When you say that MMA guys dont strike well enough to be in K1 you are ignoring fighters like Genki Sudo, Mirko Filipovic and all of the other guys who do both. And... When you say MMA guys are not good enough for Abu Dhabi you are doing the same. There are plenty of MMA guys who have won Abu Dhabi.

And I've always said that that BJJ has value. Anyone here who can read above a third grade level knows that as its in nearly every one of my posts. I've always advocated BJJ as a means to reverse submissions and chokes, and to escape the guard and mount positions and get back to your feet. If you seriously didn't know that I've written that dozens of times on this topic alone, then you did not want to know.

So when you said "DO NOT FOCUS ON BJJ. On the street, it will definitely get you killed." you were actually saying it had value. Don't know how i missed that . You can't say one thing then say another then get angry with people who question what you are saying first. Rather you should make your point of view understood in the beginning.

Cam

[cam427]

Just looked up Professor Vee on the net. Found some interesting information.

He was a student of Charles Nelson (specialist in empty hands combat), Kiyose Nakae (jiu-jitsu master), Jerome Mackey (judo expert), and Swami Vragiananda (master of Indian school of fighting known as "varmannie").
Professor Vee combined the best and most effective elements of all the styles he studied and created a new fighting system known as "Vee-jitsu" or "the art of Vee".

So he did exactly the same thing as Kano, The gracies, Bruce Lee, etc. He did a number of styles or as you put it "You won't see me switching up every couple of years like you because some new fad art gains popularity". Then he took the bits he liked and created his own style.

Sounds like a sound idea to me.

[kiddbjj]

i don't think anyone here is questioning the validity of BJJ for what it can offer as a self defence but merely that it is limited in its scope of training. i say that with over two years training (not heaps, but enough) and 5 years in another art that spent a greater amount of time working more street 'scenarios'. bjj techniques will work on the street just as they work at the gym, but its a question of whether they are the best option for a non-sport encounter.

obviously no one advocates going to ground deliberatley on the street but if you find yourself there then sweeps and escapes can get you back after faster than if you didn't know or train them.

but come on lets be realistic, if you only ever train one on one with little time constraints you can become accustomed to taking your time and not being explosive enough, which can be detrimental in my opinion.

in my other life as a kung fu guy we used to do scenarios (just one exampe) where we'd have to spar 2-3 guys in the change rooms next to the training hall, so we had to get used to limited space and obstacles and how to position ourselves to get to the friggin door as quick as possible. these type of drills are terrific and a real eye opener the first time you do them, especially if you add training knives. mma techniques will work in this scenario for sure, but have you trained to allow for the variables of environment and circumstance.