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So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?
a little descrepancy I found in one of your posts...
"And no one has to be an expert in BJJ to see that even when the top tier players fight they adhere to what I've been writing. Maybe you missed this, but I've been saying that the best way to accurately gauge a thing is to watch the best put it into practice. And we are talking about the best when we discuss the Gracies, the Machados and Nogueira. I don't have to know what you or your instructor can do if the men who you all consider the best cannot do it."
While may be true that, the gracies, Machados, and Noguiera, cant put each other down with some simple Jiu Jitsu moves at the competitions and all that... or as you said before it would all revert to the gaurd ... and thats what all the top guys use, you are exactly right...
The gracies cant make Jiu Jitsu work very effectively against Machados, or Nogueira , or any of the other top guys, Marcelo Garcia (who I'm training with next week, (yay)) or any other Abu Dhabi winner etc....
I'd just like to point out that they cant make it work because they are also fighting the best of the best... you give a gracie, or a nogueira, or a machado , a white belt, a blue belt... or someone off the street and they will make mince meat out of them with their Jiu Jitsu... Higher level students can destroy me if they want to, from the gaurd, or wherever... (they can move from the gaurd very easily) and I train Jiu Jitsu.. I'd like to think for how long I've been training im not bad either..
What im trying to say is when you put the best Jiu Jitsu vs the best Jiu Jitsu the gaurd game may get worked very heavily....
its just like putting the best K-1 striker against the best K-1 striker... its not gonna be a flash knockout (well generally, but there are also flash subs)... it will take some time, and eventually the superior person will come out... put the best K-1 striker against Joe Blow from the street, and see how long it takes them to put them down... even with their dirty fighting....
I'm not trying to argue with you, or "start something"... just pointing this out.. oh and call me a dumb "MA newb"... but I've never heard of your instructors either... just like youve prolly never heard of mine....
I'm not trying to argue with you, or "start something"... just pointing this out.. oh and call me a dumb "MA newb"... but I've never heard of your instructors either... just like youve prolly never heard of mine....
UGh dude SEVERAL of the guys he mentioned are LEGENDS in the Martial arts...you might wanna do some research...
......Lastly, I don't take what you say personally. By what you write, you're still angry because of our earlier words and now you desperately look for opportunities to vent.
Good luck with that.
I'm glad you're so professional about my attitude toward you. I often have difficulty explaining the thoughts I would like you to understand. This makes me a bit frustrated and I would like you to understand, STILL. However, I will not indulge you as you are clearly the superior artist. What could I possibly offer that you don't already know?
A person who is said to be proficient in the arts is like a fool. Because of his foolishness in concerning himself with just one thing, he thinks of nothing else and thus becomes proficient. - Hagarkure
Not too many people know of Prof Vee (Grandaster FlorendoVistitacion) or Prof. Powell. Not too shocking I suppose if you are not in the world of FMA, jujutsu or combat SD systems or care about history. Everybody wants no formality in class, why learn a language native to the art you claim to care about etc etc etc.
Anyone Remember the movie "the Warrior within" http://thewarriorwithin.com/ it's an old movie but worth $16. Click on movie preview Prof. Powell is the first shown with Soke Lil John Davis as Uke (I believe), Prof Vee is shown later in the clip. Also, Prof. Powell had an almost prophetic sound bite he said "CMA I have seen alot of amazing things ..... but can they fight". Now I am not at all bashing CMA just re-emphazing a point that the concept of utilizing techniques efficiently/practically because they were truly needed or survival is not new this quote was from the early 1970's I believe Prof. Vee started Vee jitsu te in the mid 1950's I believe.
CAM not to intrude on the debate you have with UKE. But the styles that Prof Vee learned is hardly the same as someone that learns a style because it is the flavor of the month. MA styles were not "POP at that time and the styles he learned were even less known. The flavor of the month are sensationalized "Popular" an example is BJJ but is not the only example. But the problem is because of the sensationalism if you criticize the style you become a heretic and blasphemer.
So is BJJ good for SD well it can certainly be used no question. But like any style if you don't train to condition yourself for SD you will be less efficient when the time comes period fighting SD is a short period of time. To use Bruce Lee's words if a fight last more than one minute you are doing something wrong or you can't win either way run. Now the question to ask yourself (anyone actually) how will you respond if attacked can you see BJJ working within 60 seconds? I don't know that answer just asking the questions but if someone answers no then you know what need to be worked on. I can answer yes with my judo or jujutsu and that is not a criticism of BJJ I am just saying I know I can. Even when I was young and only had wrestling background my focus was always on SD first sport second. Well to be truthful I did join wrestling for sport until I quickly realized it had multiple application.
geez this thread is huge.....anyway about this whole situation, cross train in different martial arts that give u MOST of the tools you need stand up/clinch/ground/weapons and train them against a resisting opponent and then combine that with some common sense and you will be fine.
So when you said "DO NOT FOCUS ON BJJ. On the street, it will definitely get you killed." you were actually saying it had value. Don't know how i missed that . You can't say one thing then say another then get angry with people who question what you are saying first. Rather you should make your point of view understood in the beginning.
Cam
In my very first post I did write what I meant clearly. You just read poorly, Cam. If my intention was to bash BJJ, I would have just stated that it was worthless. Instead, I wrote do not focus on it as a a sole art for self defense as it will get you killed in the streets. I also stated that its true worth in self defense is to learn the fastest ways to escape the guard and mount positions, and reversing submissions and chokes. I'm not offering any ammendments now or ever. What I originally wrote still stands true. Its just now that you've gotten over your internet bravado, you're actually reading what's written and are finally beginning(although slowly) to comprehend what I've been saying all along. Maybe next time you should read more carefully(and slowly) before you and the rest of the sheep here decide to launch a tirade in defense of something not being attacked.
Originally posted by cam427
Just looked up Professor Vee on the net. Found some interesting information.
He was a student of Charles Nelson (specialist in empty hands combat), Kiyose Nakae (jiu-jitsu master), Jerome Mackey (judo expert), and Swami Vragiananda (master of Indian school of fighting known as "varmannie").
Professor Vee combined the best and most effective elements of all the styles he studied and created a new fighting system known as "Vee-jitsu" or "the art of Vee".
So he did exactly the same thing as Kano, The gracies, Bruce Lee, etc. He did a number of styles or as you put it "You won't see me switching up every couple of years like you because some new fad art gains popularity". Then he took the bits he liked and created his own style.
Sounds like a sound idea to me.
Again, you're wrong. What Kano did is change his art into a sport. He took out the killing and brutal aspects of jujitsu so that people wouldn't fear practicing it. That's the exact opposite of what Professor Vee did. He made arts that were first and foremost for survival. And unlike Bruce Lee, he made them systematic, and not just a philosophy so that anyone could practice any old thing and call it VeeJitsu. And VeeJitsu is nothing like the MMA that you practice. Like in your analogy, your MMA would be the Wright brother's plane and the Vee arts and Sanuces would be a Stealth Fighter. The so-called crosstraining concept that you have recently discovered has been refined over the last 60 years for the sole purpose of street survival. So you'll be playing catch up for decades, and by the time you reach the current level, we'll be someplace even further.
The Gracies didn't pioneer anything as much as they popularized the branch of judo that came from fusen ryu jujitsu techniques. Bruce Lee hadn't even come to America when Professor Vee had already begun to create and refine his systems. So Cam, all your talk of pioneers is just your ignorance of what was being done way before the men you give credit to did what they did.
Even Kajukenbo, which I do not practice, crosstrained before Bruce Lee and the MMA craze. But as I said before about some of you here, your knowledge is predicated on Black Belt magazine articles and advertisements. If you haven't heard of someone, you guys automatically assume that they aren't worth a damn, because in your minds they would be popular if they were. That's foolish, and I expect no less from some of you. Its funny how you view the Professor as obscure, but some of the more serious artists here view you as ignorantly sheltered as you have never heard of him or any of the men that I mentioned. Hmm ...
In a real martial arts community, the best are known amongst each other. Thats why I stated real recognizes real, and not real recognizes the heavily marketed and advertised. Visiting a webpage doesn't help you to understand a thing except history, Cam. You don't know a thing about Professor Vee or VeeJitsu. You have no idea about how his systems are put together, just some of what he studied. Which is why earlier in this thread my advice to all of you wasn't to go out and learn what I practice, because I didn't even speak about it until now as I have no need to promote it. My advice was to go out and learn about what's available beyond your neck of the woods.
If you're going to take JKD, find the best JKD instructor like Inosanto or Vunak or someone that they feel teaches the curriculum to their standards. If you're going to learn to fight with weapons, I don't suggest learning the sword or staff, as you can't carry those in the street. Learn Arnis/escrima/kali that teach you to master the motion and not the weapon. If you're dead-set on being a grappler, learn judo, or a style that teaches you to put the other man down and also teaches you how to escape quickly if you find yourself on the ground. But whatever you study, learn it well so that you become proficient at something that will keep you alive outside of ideal situations.
Tant01: I'm going to use as many words to respond to what you wrote based on how much I think what you wrote was worth.
uke i agree with most of what you said....however in regards to prof.v (rip) his top student david james comes to teach classes at my gym from time 2 time (my gym has many differnt arts all in one place and they are all seperated in different parts of the room)and from what ive seen i think his concepts are excellent for the street however his training method and technique choice seem to be a bit unrealistic to me, however as i listened i found his talks on not being afarid of some1 shouting and cussin at u to be excellent and very enlighting.As for the quote on prof.v making veejitsu systematic and not just a philpohsy like lee so anyone could call anything by that name to be just a bit missdirected.Technically you can combine w.e u want and call it jkd..bruce did not want to make a system but he realized he needed fundamental techniques as his core which became jun fan gung fu (now called orig. jkd).JFGF was supposed to be learned before moving on to the jkd philophsy to insure a good base in all ranges of fighting before moving on to making your own jkd...see this in essence is what jkd is all about finding what is usefull..gettig rid of what is not and adding what is speciffically your own.JKD evolved in many diferent forms because people have differnt arts and techniques that works for them....larry hartsell moved more toward jkd grappling....vunak toward streetfighting and weapons....inosanto into indonesian and filipino arts....those are their own personal choices and they do add other arts as well to their own specific jkd which i think everyone should do and not just a certain system or art.Good to hear from u again uke
The men who you are hailing as MMA's cream of the crop were masters of their particular ranges waaay before they ever entered NHB. MMA are the guys who have ABANDONED their original disciplines to study all ranges with mediocre results. Like Cam.
The Gracies stay faithful to BJJ. Mirko Filipovic stays faithful to thaiboxing, even if he does know how to reverse many grappling holds and attempts. The MMA guys I am speaking of are like Chuck Lidell, who claims to be a striker but let a 40 year old wrestler outbox him for the entire match. And Couture admitted that he had only been boxing for a couple of months. And like Tito Ortiz, who wildly throws people using wrestling and got outwrestled by that same 40 year old and cried at the end of his match. They haven't mastered any range, and its obvious. Put Lidell against CroCop or Ortiz against any Gracie and they'll lose again. Which tells the tale.
See, the funny thing here is that most advocates of MMA usually go to the Gracies, Nogueira, CroCop or Fedor as examples of how MMA has "evolved" or made better fighters, which is bullsh!t because these men were excellent at what they did before they participated in these kinds of events. CroCop has participated in K1. The Gracies and Machados have participated in the Abu Dhabi. But if you take 98% of the MMA fighters and put them in either of those tournaments, they would get eliminated in the first round. Why is that? Because their skills in each individual range is mediocre or worse. Jack of all trades, master of none.
And this is what MMA guys train for. Competition. But they couldn't last against any guy who has mastered either range. That's why CroCop, Fedor and Nogueira are waved like a flag when trying to validate the talent in those events. I have no doubt that the MMA guys get in good shape. Not as good as professional boxers, but better shape than any average guy. But they do take steroids. I've seen fat guys with six packs. I've seen Josh Barnett go from flabby to defined. Ken Shamrock was juicing up in the early UFC's no doubt in my mind. And in order to supplement for a lack of skill, they put giants like Paul Varelans, Semmy Schilt, Emmanuel Yarborough and Tim Sliva in the rings, so the better strikers and grapplers can look like "giant killers". And they don't even let the big guys like Silva fight guys like Matt Hughes anymore, so we don't get to see if the style is good, just the athlete in the respective weight class.
SamuraiGuy's above assessment was correct, but offbase as he misunderstood what I was getting at. This ought to clear that up quick fast.
You're entitled to your opinion. But you should get on the floor with David James and see if what he's teaching does or doesn't work. I have news for you though, alot of his students are former JKD practitioners who left JKD alone for good. Most of his students are law enforcement, bouncers or students who leave other styles and never look back. Maybe you shouldn't wait for him to do seminars and actually go and see what his full time students are doing.
But again, you're entitled to your opinion even though its based on time to time training with him.
We've had the "JKD is not a system" debate before, where you agreed with nearly everything I wrote. I won't rehash it here, but you can read it again here:
PS David James was not Professor Vee's top student. He is the heir to his last and final system. But this is about "So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?", not Veejitsu and its politics.
if by get on the floor you mean stand there while he demonstrates how to do a wristlock standing up on someone who is not resisting at all and then drilling the move in a prearranged pattern.....then no id rather not get on the floor with him..but like i said before the concept was good but the training method and technique choice were unrealistic at best.....i highly doubt u will wristlock a 6'2 200 man who is resisting...but like u said i am entitled to my opinion so im sticking by it but thanx for the reply neway.
if by get on the floor you mean stand there while he demonstrates how to do a wristlock standing up on someone who is not resisting at all and then drilling the move in a prearranged pattern.....then no id rather not get on the floor with him..but like i said before the concept was good but the training method and technique choice were unrealistic at best.....i highly doubt u will wristlock a 6'2 200 man who is resisting...but like u said i am entitled to my opinion so im sticking by it but thanx for the reply neway.
If you thought VeeJistu is wrist locking a man and then rehearsing a prearranged pattern, you have no idea what its about. Whatsoever. As I said, don't stand there and let him apply anything on you. Get in there a fight and see what happens to you. David regularly invites people who don't think his stuff works to come down and either show him a better way, or get on the mat and see if it doesn't work. You're in Huntington so the LIRR will take you right there to FightHouse. We'll see if you investigate, or continue base your knowledge of an entire system thats renowned for street fighting on a couple of seminars you witnessed.
Either do it or don't, but please don't make this debate about something other than the topic. Start a new one if you like.
fighthouse is where i train at uke just for the record and i see him there most of the time....i have not gone in awhile due 2 money problems but hey its ok...and uhh i see his training all the time he begins with pushups sit ups and jumping jacks......demonstrates the technique hes showing which most of the time is just prefight stuff like being ready and whatnot which is great but then he goes into a dead pattern...what he teaches they do not contest....they dont spar ever from what ive seen...its basicallly just demonstratinG a move and then trainingthe same way he showed it like a demo.....so no like i said 3 times now great concepts but the training method is garbage for so called street self defense...training only for self defense is a dead end anyway most people dont fight neway.....shyt i go to manhatten..queens brooklyn statten island all the time (mostly at night) and never had a single problem.Stay outta night clubs n bars in bad neighborhoods...if your drunk or if u think its not safe to walk home get a cab....shyt stay home once in awhile...go out to places in nice areas shyt self defense is basically common sense:stay outta bad areas and u avoid 99% of fights....how many people here have ever had there house broken into while they were home..or been carjacked...or robbeedd i guarantte 98% have not...so why even bother training for self defense??? u should train for fun to stay in shape and grow as a human being...not sit down and fuckin think hmm what am i guna do if sum meth addict comes as me with 17 switch blades shit i beter learn a self defense art to disarm all these knives while drinking my coffee.Bottom line use some common sense and ull avoid 99% of "street fights" wondering who is guna randomly just attack u should be last on your list if you use some common sense.
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