realism in JJ establishments?

[danfaggella]

i know that plenty of very good stuff is taught in a judo/jj/bjj place, but do the real establishments teach the techniques that would be needed for self-defence? like, they can't inpliment kneeing in the balls into thier sparring, but do they show thier students what may need to be done in a REAL fight and not a submission fighting tournament?

[OmaPlata]

i know that plenty of very good stuff is taught in a judo/jj/bjj place, but do the real establishments teach the techniques that would be needed for self-defence? like, they can't inpliment kneeing in the balls into thier sparring, but do they show thier students what may need to be done in a REAL fight and not a submission fighting tournament?

At times we practice breaking bear hugs, chokes from behind, breaking head locks, people grabbing your throat, etc. And when you roll you can incorporate when you would punch your opponent. And there are days where we train with no GI. But for the most part it is training for an opponent with a GI, though once you get good, it doesnt matter you can control the guy with or without it. Ive been taught, that if you get into a street fight and you get the opponents arm, to break the thing no questions asked. If you get his back , to put him to sleep.

[danfaggella]

even a man with no grappling background can punch your nuts from the gaurd, or rip off you nose or claw at your eyes if you two and very close. Are such real self-defence type things explained? i think they were incorporated in JJ of the old days, but BJJ is (besides being awsome) sportive in nature.

[pstevens]

Well, I've tried all three, so I'll give you my personal observations. But keep an open mind, as instruction at each gym may vary.

Judo - For the most part is sport... The gym I trained did no self-defense nor did they have groundwork. Just some joint locks if you found yourself in that position... Judo allows you a couple of seconds to apply a hold, if both combatants fall to the ground. Purely from an observational point of view, I've noticed many gyms are run the same.

Japanese Jiu-Jitsu - The style I studied was Danzan-Ryu. It has many proponents of Judo, karate and BJJ. There are strikes and self-defense aspects... However, it takes more of a traditional approach to self-defense, rather than a conceptual.

Brazilian Jiu-jitsu - Many gyms are converting to MMA or submissions grappling. The sporting aspect of BJJ has converted many gyms into sport-oriented facilities, however, you can still find places that teach the self-defense aspect. Mostly, gyms affiliated with a Gracie organization still retains the self-defense syllabus.

Hope that helps.

[jubaji]

even a man with no grappling background can punch your nuts from the gaurd, or rip off you nose or claw at your eyes if you two and very close. .

Not likely, no.

[pstevens]

even a man with no grappling background can punch your nuts from the gaurd, or rip off you nose or claw at your eyes if you two and very close. Are such real self-defence type things explained? i think they were incorporated in JJ of the old days, but BJJ is (besides being awsome) sportive in nature.

Actually, he won't be able to punch your groin while you apply guard strategy. I remember rolling with a purple belt. His open guard was so incredibly good that I couldn't even get into posture or near enough to try anything. And this was "no gi." Finally, when he decided to submit me, he used his hooks to spin my back into him and finished with a rear naked choke. Since then, I've been working my open gaurd strategy to a level of proficiency. I would guess a brown or black belt would have no trouble keeping people from getting near their weak points.

[danfaggella]

if he knows you are gunna break his arm on the street, he will do what he can. a real fight is a scary thing and as we al know there are no refs. survival invlved the tactics i described, i dont like them either.

thanks pstevens, that was a nice post. from waht i have learned in books/ via internet, i think you are right. what do you mean by JJJ teaching self-defence in a not-so conceptual way?

[jubaji]

if he knows you are gunna break his arm on the street, he will do what he can.

That's why I said not likely. "What he can" is his problem, or more specifically, 'what he can't'.

[pstevens]

if he knows you are gunna break his arm on the street, he will do what he can. a real fight is a scary thing and as we al know there are no refs. survival invlved the tactics i described, i dont like them either.

As jubaji points out, what he "wants to do" is different from what he can "actually do." Try rolling with someone with considerable grappling skill. As much as you "will" yourself to do something against their positional dominance, you will quickly find there's nothing you can do about it. The feeling is very defeating... much like sinking in quicksand.

thanks pstevens, that was a nice post. from waht i have learned in books/ via internet, i think you are right. what do you mean by JJJ teaching self-defence in a not-so conceptual way?

The differences between conceptual and traditional doesn’t make one better than the other. In fact, traditional methods can be deemed conceptual or linear in their approach. But what I mean by conceptual is that an element that applies equally to every situation. For instance, slipping in boxing is a conceptual strategy. It is an “idea” that applies to all the punches in boxing. In traditional arts, they have technique A reserved for this, Technique B reserved for that, and so forth - which in themselves are individual “concepts,” but when we refere to conceptual strategy, we refer to an overall scheme. Hope that helps.

[danfaggella]

yes it does thanks.

so dot hey teach gouging defence and nut-punching defence ect... in these japanese jj establishments?

[jubaji]

good job!

yes it does thanks.

so dot hey teach gouging defence and nut-punching defence ect... in these japanese jj establishments?

Way to miss the point entirely!!!!

[aseepish]

Missing the Even Larger Point

The whole point of Judo, and by extention BJJ, is to be able to train techniques full speed, full power, against a resisting opponent, EXACTLY as they would be used in a real confrontation, and thus being more suitable for self-defense.

You cannot practice eye-gouges, groin strikes, biting, finger locks/breaks to this degree without maiming your training partners. Using these techniques successfully in a fight is difficult because you can only guess how the other guy is going to react/resist. That's not to say they don't work, only that there is no way to train them under conditions that would tell you that they would work for certain.

Cross train in Muay Thai - it's a sport for sure, but 99% of what's taught can be applied in a match (under full Thai rules), if not during sparring.

So the lesson is: get someone into a good controlled position and THEN poke his eyes out or bite him or whatever.

[danfaggella]

obviously, these things arent used for real in spars, but shouldn't they be at least conceptually covered in REAL self-defence training? I'm sure that a punch is a punch, even if it goes to the nuts, but there are plenty of editional "street fight" self-defence attacks and defences that a practicioner might want to get a general idea of.

to a much lesser extent, this is kind like pitting a wrestler in a fight against an MMA guy, but never really going over striking with the wrestler, even though it IS part of a real fight.

i understand it is an exaguration and i love BJJ (i am heavily involved in it now, int he gym and with spar-pals back home), but am i getting this idea across?

[aseepish]

I definitely agree that you should be exposed to these tactics and techniques. My point is that they shouldn't be the foundation of your style.

[profevil2002]

The BJJ gym I attend teaches seperate self defence that covers the combat areas highlighted. The instructor is also a police officier and uses these methods on daily life (they have to work). I myself am new to gracie BJJ and I find it awesome, it is not a complete system and it does not pretend to be train with other martials arts too. I have a black belt in american kenpo and this art deals with groin strikes and so on; however; its grappling is nothing compared to BJJ. I really love BJJ and wish I had found it earlier, I now also train in JKD and MT.