San Shou?

[danfaggella]

San Shou involves a lot of traditional styles, but then again, it competes in a sparring nature. From what I know, traditional martial arts are practiced with katas, traditional weapons, and invovle a lot of self-defence reality moves, like eye gouging and groin attacks. They also tend to have ugly rigid stances. Modern martial arts (BJJ, Boxing for example) are taught within the rules of competition. They involve very practical ways to submit and strike opponents, within the bounderies of such rules. Thier stances tend to be fluid and look much like those of the kickboxer, who has a very scientifically versatile stance. We see them with thier hands up all the time, unlike the traditional karate/jujutsu strikes where the other hand is (for some random traditional reason) returned right back to the hip. We see people in such unpractical stances get their faces beat in during MMA contests. However, modern MA leaves out the possibilities of many real life attacks, and only teaches within the rules. Obviously, San Shou guys know how to ably real life moves that are not practicable in the dojo (you cant practice your groin strikes on your buddy in the dojo). However, these san shou guys find a way to improve thier abilities and test themselves without doing katas or practicing with a partner who does the same telegraphed move over and over again. This is awsome, I think this is a great way to use modern MA "sparing", which doesnt encompas all of the techniques, but the ones that can be used sportively, with the traditional styles of fighting that involve all the self-defence stuff. So, what are your thoughts on san shou competition, and are san shou practicioners traditional or modern martial artists?

[Sagacious Lu]

This is a great thread, but it really should be in the CMA section. Over the last couple of months I have been cutting weight because I want to have some San Shou matches. By now I'm close enough (less than 15 lbs. to go) to where I want to be that I can get there fairly quickly. The frustrating part is that San Shou tournaments seem few and far between. I believe San Shou translates to "free fight". I train at a traditional Shaolin Hung Chuan school that puts a strong emphasis on sparring and the combative side of our art. Although we practice very low traditional kung fu stances (which are a fantastic leg work out) we do not fight from them. Our stances in a fight are like a kick-boxer's, the way you described. Another point, I'm pretty sure kata is a japanese word, while San Shou is chinese. We practice forms, which are kung fu's equivalent to karate's katas. They are very different in practice though. We are a traditional school so of course they are part of the curriculum. I did a little math and I spend about 5% of my training time each week on forms. Contrary to what a lot MMA guys would have you believe I see a lot of value in the forms. However, even if they were as "useless" as some think to me it's worth spending a measely 5% of my time to give respect to the tradition I'm studying. To me it gives the art a unique spirit and heart that makes it compelling. Whatever your opinion on forms the minutes I spend on them each day are tiny compared to the hours I spend on sparring, heavy bag work, technique and conditioning. I would expect to see students from traditional schools like the one I train at at a San Shou tournament. From the google search I did some people say their schools are "San Shou" schools and use it for the name of their style. I'm not sure exactly what they're doing because so far I've only seen them on the 'net.

[danfaggella]

thanks a lot, that was some good stuff.

so, in your traditional KF styles, that obviously include all the illegal gouging/etc... techniques, you do in fact train in a sparring fashion where you use gloves and train in strikes/grappling without the crippling nerve or throat attacks that you might have to use in a real fight. To be this is the best of both worlds, because you train to get better in a ring while at the same time knowing what to do in a real fight and what things work only in the ring and what would work only in the street. I personally am against these traditional poeple who only train only against "atackers" who do telegraphed moves twords them in the dojo. These people speak for the negative value of sparring, but i beleive that sparring developes a lot, that that all these morons with thier lame stances should get in a ring and see what its like to fight someone who isn't telegraphing anything, and who understands economic stance and rythm and striking. I beleive that training in a sparring type scenario is fruitful, and that knowing how to actually aply the more deadly and "illegal" moves at the right time and place makes fro a very good way to practically learn martal art. I also beleive heavily in MMA, and by that I dont just mean BJJ/MT, I mean picking things up form all martial art, weather it be a hand form, a way to block a certain strike, a takedown, a strategy, a way of breathing, there is value to be found all over the place!!!

comments welcome!

:}

[LKFMDC]

https://www.SanDaTrainingSystems.com

https://www.KingofSanDaUSA.com

https://www.NYSanDa.com

a lot of your questions will get answered

[Sagacious Lu]

thanks a lot, that was some good stuff.

so, in your traditional KF styles, that obviously include all the illegal gouging/etc... techniques, you do in fact train in a sparring fashion where you use gloves and train in strikes/grappling without the crippling nerve or throat attacks that you might have to use in a real fight. To be this is the best of both worlds, because you train to get better in a ring while at the same time knowing what to do in a real fight and what things work only in the ring and what would work only in the street.

We def. practice techniques that can't be used in sparring/the ring like strikes to the throat and eyes. We try to make sparring as realistic as we can without making it unreasonably dangerous, but of course no one wants to get their testicles smashed in the name of training. One thing we do not do is ground fighting. We practice many joint locks, throws and take-downs but once the fight goes to the ground we stop, stand up and start again.

[danfaggella]

I think that much of the stuff you can do in grappling tourneys and NHB figthing is valid, though positons like gaurd leave your genetals open to attack and stuff. I think that real life-death self-defence fights can end up on the ground, and I think that knowing not only submission, but effective ground striking and attacks tot he eyes/throat/groin/nerves will fare well on the ground versus an attacker, granded there arent seven more dudes, but I'd be running anyways.

[Sagacious Lu]

I think that much of the stuff you can do in grappling tourneys and NHB figthing is valid, though positons like gaurd leave your genetals open to attack and stuff. I think that real life-death self-defence fights can end up on the ground, and I think that knowing not only submission, but effective ground striking and attacks tot he eyes/throat/groin/nerves will fare well on the ground versus an attacker, granded there arent seven more dudes, but I'd be running anyways.

I agree completely. There is no such thing as a perfect system, and as much as I love it that applies to Hung Chuan as well. At some point I would like to spend some time learning ground fighting techniques because I def. see the wisdom in preparing for a confrontation that does end up on the ground. The only problem is I need a few extra hours in each day- like maybe if they were 28 hours long instead of 24. Then I'd have time to practice all the things I want to learn

[danfaggella]

I kinda just wish I could live forever....

[DeSousa]

i whant to know one thing and i know th thread is like old as i but in the san shou you could use the knees ?? cause in the rules of the fight i was it wasnt allowed is it because it was a friendly/show off fight or it isnt realy allowed??

[punkmonk]

In San Shou you can use knees and elbows. We generally compete in TaiJi Legacy San Shou tournaments. My teacher is competing next month in Texas. We train as practical as possible with head gear and gloves. You do have to be much more careful for we kick to the knee and groin often while simultaneously blocking (deflecting) punching and stepping into the opponent. San Shou is good training, I see alot of people that are competting are useing kickboxing, boxing, and karate through.
Yet, on ground fighting, there are alternatives to bjj or the more popular styles. more practical for the street. One single art can be well rounded and cover all areas of fighting, it just has to be able to change and adapt to new techniques in fighting.
I have noticed that Chinese arts do not encourage this. They are very traditional and for good cause. Their techniques have been tested and time proven over centuries and should not be changed lightly.
Yet to survive, one must adapt and evolve.

[danfaggella]

^ True, Kung Fu is ancient and surely has been crafted over a long period of time, and serves a fine purpose for self defence if one trains correctly. However, I don't like it when people say "This style has been practiced for 203492094 years!! How can you question its validity?!" Things must change. Everything changes with time, everything tries to get better by doing things in better ways. Masonry in the 21st century has evolved from that of the 14th century, and is surely better. Modern boxers fight differently than boxers in the 19th century did. New techniques and concepts and ways of doing things are constantly flowing, and things are consistently modified for the better.

[punkmonk]

I know, it's a double edged sword.
the WC I train is more progressive than many other kung fu styles, in that we add and adapt to the new styles being created.
BJJ was an issue, one of the Sifu's took it upon himself to develop ground fighting that utilized the principles and concepts of traditional Wing Chun and adapted for modern techniques.
You do have to be careful and not change too much. Just because you study an art to learn how to counter it, you do not want to play your opponent's game so to speak, and fight just like them.