WTF was Royler doing in this fight?

[BoarSpear]

Okay I have tried not to comment on The BJJ/Mma thing for awhile now, but i just saw Royler's ugh (i dont know what that was but it wasnt fighting) match with Sak.

PLEASE explain to me what the point of scooting around the ring on his ass was? Was that his invitation to lie down to Sak? Whatever it was, it illustrates my point of GJJ having nothing to do with reality outside the ring...is that what GJJ has into evolved to since they decided learning how to take people down was too dangerous? Instead Royler chose to crab walk around and scoot on his ass hoping Sak would decide to fight his way since he cant/wont fight any other way? That seemed the most humiliating experience possible..."please lie down on top of me and fight because i dont know how to fight standing up, and I suck at take downs, BUT if you lay down on top of me i will kick your ass!" ...

i really enjoy watching MMA but that fight proves GJJ has no basis in reality and is useless for the street as the Gracies themselves understand and practice their art.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=203WYOMY

[EmptyneSs]

Okay I have tried not to comment on The BJJ/Mma thing for awhile now, but i just saw Royler's ugh (i dont know what that was but it wasnt fighting) match with Sak.

PLEASE explain to me what the point of scooting around the ring on his ass was? Was that his invitation to lie down to Sak? Whatever it was, it illustrates my point of GJJ having nothing to do with reality outside the ring...is that what GJJ has into evolved to since they decided learning how to take people down was too dangerous? Instead Royler chose to crab walk around and scoot on his ass hoping Sak would decide to fight his way since he cant/wont fight any other way? That seemed the most humiliating experience possible..."please lie down on top of me and fight because i dont know how to fight standing up, and I suck at take downs, BUT if you lay down on top of me i will kick your ass!" ...

i really enjoy watching MMA but that fight proves it has no basis in reality and is useless for the street as the Gracies themselves understand and practice their art.







http://www.megaupload.com/?d=203WYOMY

if u think that royler or any other bjj practitioner would act the same way in a real self defense situation outside the ring, then u are mistaken. u seem to assume that people who partake in "sport martial arts" cannot make the distinction between competitions and real life situations. u also for some reason seem to think that sport martial artists are going to adhere to competition rules when they are put in a real self defense situation outside of the ring or dojo. to dismiss the value of an entire art based on a mma match u saw on tv is narrow minded if u ask me.

[Sensei Saki]

I think I do.I haven't heard anything like that before:
said I assume that people who partake in sport martial arts can not make the distinction between competitions and real life situations.Interesting gossip:
said I for some reason seem to think that sport martial artists are going to adhere to competition rules when they are put in a real self defense situation outside of the ring or dojo.Why do you want to do
dismiss the value of an entire art based on a mma match you saw on tv is narrow minded if you ask me so much?

[BoarSpear]

if u think that royler or any other bjj practitioner would act the same way in a real self defense situation outside the ring, then u are mistaken. u seem to assume that people who partake in "sport martial arts" cannot make the distinction between competitions and real life situations. u also for some reason seem to think that sport martial artists are going to adhere to competition rules when they are put in a real self defense situation outside of the ring or dojo. to dismiss the value of an entire art based on a mma match u saw on tv is narrow minded if u ask me.

I figured someone was gonna say that .....So reality combat sports arent huh? i thought you guys all touted how it had proved to be effective for self defense by evidence of your ring fights...if ring fights are using non reality based technique that completly removes any relevance to the street.

But even so explain how that was supposed to work in the ring then? Was the idea to guilt Sak into laying down in his guard?
What evolution in the ring made this into a technique? it was a MAJOR part of Roylers game plan...

Next explain this....
If he cant effectively fight in the ring, how is he suddenly capable of striking and takedowns on the street? or are they counting on an unskilled opponent in the street that will allow their poor standup and takedown skills to suffice until the butt flopping becomes effective once the opponent is tired?

[medic06]

to dismiss the value of an entire art based on a mma match u saw on tv is narrow minded if u ask me.

Well said my good man!

[EmptyneSs]

I figured someone was gonna say that .....So reality combat sports arent huh? i thought you guys all touted how it had proved to be effective for self defense by evidence of your ring fights...if ring fights are using non reality based technique that completly removes any relevance to the street.

how can u base an entire art with thousands of practitioners all over the world on 1 mma match? arent u doing the same thing those people do when they see tai chi being practiced in the park by old people and think it sucks? they are basing an entire art on what they have seen from a few people. does that make it right for them to discredit the entire art of tai chi? i mean shit, the tai chi i see being practiced in the park has no resemblance to reality fighting, does that mean the entire art of tai chi with all its combat forms and weapons training is useless? this is the conclusion id come to if i was using your logic.

and btw, ring fights dont need to use "reality based" techniques or even reflect them because they arent real life self defense situations and their practitioners know this. i dont think there is any true martial artist in the world who cant tell the difference between competitions and life or death situations. i dont know were u got the rediculous idea that people who partake in "sport arts" are going to adhere to competition rules in a life or death situation. that is asanine.

But even so explain how that was supposed to work in the ring then? Was the idea to guilt Sak into laying down in his guard?
What evolution in the ring made this into a technique? it was a MAJOR part of Roylers game plan...

i havent seen this match, but ive seen this done before in mma. yes, it is an invitation to the opponent to come and grapple. i personally think its lame and boring to watch. yet again, u are basing an entire art on the actions of 1 person. really narrow minded if u ask me.

Next explain this....
If he cant effectively fight in the ring, how is he suddenly capable of striking and takedowns on the street? or are they counting on an unskilled opponent in the street that will allow their poor standup and takedown skills to suffice until the butt flopping becomes effective once the opponent is tired?

what do u know about what someone is or isnt capable of? mabye in the street he wouldnt even need to use jiu jitsu because he carries a gun with him. i mean, u never know. u can make all the assumptions u want, but didnt u once say yourself that its assumptions like those that get people killed on the street??

btw, i know u like to generalize entire groups of people with no real basis for your conclusions but i want to say that i may practice "sport arts", but the reason i train in them is for self defense. i train in muay thai and bjj at a mma gym, and i like many others train in these arts in order to attain certain attributes that will help me better defend myself. if u think im gonna adhere to rules when someone is trying to take my life from me or a friend, you are dead wrong.

[BoarSpear]

how can u base an entire art with thousands of practitioners all over the world on 1 mma match? arent u doing the same thing those people do when they see tai chi being practiced in the park by old people and think it sucks? they are basing an entire art on what they have seen from a few people. does that make it right for them to discredit the entire art of tai chi? i mean shit, the tai chi i see being practiced in the park has no resemblance to reality fighting, does that mean the entire art of tai chi with all its combat forms and weapons training is useless? this is the conclusion id come to if i was using your logic.

and btw, ring fights dont need to use "reality based" techniques or even reflect them because they arent real life self defense situations and their practitioners know this. i dont think there is any true martial artist in the world who cant tell the difference between competitions and life or death situations. i dont know were u got the rediculous idea that people who partake in "sport arts" are going to adhere to competition rules in a life or death situation. that is asanine.



i havent seen this match, but ive seen this done before in mma. yes, it is an invitation to the opponent to come and grapple. i personally think its lame and boring to watch. yet again, u are basing an entire art on the actions of 1 person. really narrow minded if u ask me.

what do u know about what someone is or isnt capable of? mabye in the street he wouldnt even need to use jiu jitsu because he carries a gun with him. i mean, u never know. u can make all the assumptions u want, but didnt u once say yourself that its assumptions like those that get people killed on the street??

btw, i know u like to generalize entire groups of people with no real basis for your conclusions but i want to say that i may practice "sport arts", but the reason i train in them is for self defense. i train in muay thai and bjj at a mma gym, and i like many others train in these arts in order to attain certain attributes that will help me better defend myself. if u think im gonna adhere to rules when someone is trying to take my life from me or a friend, you are dead wrong.

Oh you havent watched the fight ...i provided the link...That isnt just ANY bjj guy...its A GRACIE....i never mentioned rules...you did...you still havent answered my question what it was supposed to accomplish in the ring!!....as for your tai chi analogy...If i saw one of the FOUNDING Family members of any system try to pass that shit off as anything to do with fighting i would laugh...just like i did at that crap....but fine you wanna claim he really can fight, he just chose that in the ring because what happened there didnt matter to the legendary undefeated Gracie clans reputation. and as for the "they fight differently than they train" argument...good luck with that...it seems to me if Royler had anything else to fall back on he would have tried it eh? i mean really if the Gracie art is so awesome why resort to that? No matter how well you can grapple from the ground, if you have no way to get the opponent there but BEGGING him to lie down and fight like a gracie whats the use?

I was flaming you about the street since that moronic butt scoot was clearly going to get you killed ANYWHERE you tried it...it didnt do Royler much good even in the ring where i presume he had developed and practiced that move...
So back to my question what the hell is the point? 75% or more of that fight is royler scooting around on all fours with his ass on the floor flicking ineffective kicks at Sak while Sak pounds the hell out of him for it...i really dont see the benifit or strategy to this..was he hoping Sak broke his foot from kicking him so much?

BTW whats the proper name for that butt scoot technique so i dont have to call it the butt scoot?

As for the gun he might carry...i hope he doesnt try to use it from that butt scoot position.... he might shoot himself in the foot!!

[EmptyneSs]

Oh you havent watched the fight ...i provided the link...That isnt just ANY bjj guy...its A GRACIE....i never mentioned rules...you did...you still havent answered my question what it was supposed to accomplish in the ring!!....as for your tai chi analogy...If i saw one of the FOUNDING Family members of any system try to pass that shit off as anything to do with fighting i would laugh...just like i did at that crap....but fine you wanna claim he really can fight, he just chose that in the ring because what happened there didnt matter to the legendary undefeated Gracie clans reputation. and as for the "they fight differently than they train" argument...good luck with that...it seems to me if Royler had anything else to fall back on he would have tried it eh?

I was flaming you about the street since that moronic butt scoot was clearly going to get you killed ANYWHERE you tried it...it didnt do Royler much good even in the ring where i presume he had developed and practiced that move...
So back to my question what the hell is the point? 75% or more of that fight is royler scooting around on all fours with his ass on the floor flicking ineffective kicks at Sak while Sak pounds the hell out of him for it...i really dont see the benifit or strategy to this..was he hoping Sak broke his foot from kicking him so much?

BTW whats the proper name for that butt scoot technique so i dont have to call it the butt scoot?

yeah your right. bjj does suck cause royler gracie lost to sak. all that hard work and pain i put myself though, the conditioning, all the escapes from bad positions and finishing holds that i learned, all the clothing manipulations, joint locks, chokes, collar strangulations, sweeps, takedowns, trips, and throws ive learned from my short time in bjj are all useless and actually have not improved my chances of defending myself in the street because u saw royler gracie have a shitty fight vs another grappler(one of the best in the world).


cmon boarspear i dont get u sometimes. i already knew u were a big mma fan, and have mentioned that before. the reason i knew u were such a big mma fan was because u must have really watached alot of mma to have become so insecure about your own training now that u have to try to discredit other arts to feel better.

i already posted a thread containing a link to an online us military hand to hand combat manual. all the ground fighting techniques from jiu jitsu, bjj to be more exact. they even used collar chokes and strangles with their army uniforms. u can check it for yourself and then talk about how jiu jitsu has no value for real self defense. our own military trains techniques from it.

look, i love all martial arts and know that i can learn something from any art and make use of it and i think most martial artists can do the same. do u truly feel that bjj has no self defense values at all? ive been doing bjj for less than a year now, and before that the only grappling i knew was a small amount of judo. if not for training in bjj, i really wouldnt have any grappling skills at all, so for sure my chances of defending myself are better than they were before.

btw boarspear i dont really know you, but with your insecurity and narrow mindedness, u sound like a lousy martial artist. i bet thats why you carry so many weapons on you, cause you are just insecure and this thread of yours proves it even more so than all your other posts were u complain about people bashing arts, then proceed to bash an art yourself like u always do. hypocrisy never sleeps.

[medic06]

I find it quite arrogant to assume that all grappling comes from BJJ.

[BoarSpear]

Well said my good man!

dude have you seen this fight? all i ever heard when i said something about UFC was how those guys all sucked and Pride was "different," since i had never seen a pride fight, I hushed. Well i have now....and they were right it was different alright it was the most ridiculous thing i had ever seen.
... I have seen XMA demonstrations that werent this ludicrous. Now i realize this is the ring, but how the hell did they arrive at that as sensible even in the ring? ...it was ADMITTING he had nothing better to try...surely he wanted to win...he would have tried what he thought gave him the best chance from within the rule structure and his toolbox. The best he could come up with was that?

If this had been anyone OTHER than Helio, Rickson or his sons i wouldnt assume it reflected on the art, but it was a Gracie! surely they would be the purest GJJ representatives on the planet...if i cant see GJJ work from watching a GRACIE in competition, then where should i look to see how it is applied?

It would seem to me that MMA competition is much like racing or any other competition where name brands are involved..its an advertisment for what your product is capable of...I aint buying it.

[BoarSpear]

yeah your right. bjj does suck cause royler gracie lost to sak. all that hard work and pain i put myself though, the conditioning, all the escapes from bad positions and finishing holds that i learned, all the clothing manipulations, joint locks, chokes, collar strangulations, sweeps, takedowns, trips, and throws ive learned from my short time in bjj are all useless and actually have not improved my chances of defending myself in the street because u saw royler gracie have a shitty fight vs another grappler(one of the best in the world).

Hey dude i didnt say anything about BJJ in the ring....i said a Gracie...i was under the impression when i saw a gracie fight, i was seeing GJJ in action...

i realize their is a difference in grappling styles, and their focus...my point was the GRACIES overspecialized to the point that it is ridiculous. Royler was PROVEN to be a poor striker and unable to deal with Saks stand up...Royce wasnt exactly an awesome standup fighter either ....they BOTH SUCK at takedowns...I dont care how great you can fight IF i lie down on top of you, Sak wasnt too impressed either

i already posted a thread containing a link to an online us military hand to hand combat manual. all the ground fighting techniques from jiu jitsu, bjj to be more exact. they even used collar chokes and strangles with their army uniforms. u can check it for yourself and then talk about how jiu jitsu has no value for real self defense. our own military trains techniques from it.

good for you, I POSTED THE FREAKIN VIDEO OF THE ACTUAL FIELD MANUAL...NOWHERE in the course is there ANYTHING REMOTELY SIMILAR to what Royler was doing. sure all those old JUDO chokes work, im glad you BJJ guys like them. all the stuff on the video is what i learned as a KID in the 1960's only it was called combat judo by the military back then. It is a new spin on an old art.

btw boarspear i dont really know you, but with your insecurity and narrow mindedness, u sound like a lousy martial artist. i bet thats why you carry so many weapons on you, cause you are just insecure and this thread of yours proves it even more so than all your other posts were u complain about people bashing arts, then proceed to bash an art yourself like u always do. hypocrisy never sleeps.

yeah jr, Im insecure...LOL whatever you say man...and yep you got it im a lousy martial artist, thats why i bring all the knives so other people can take them away and use them on me! ......hypocrisy never sleeps and suckers are born every minute.

you still havent explained its ring use, in spite of all the nice personal attacks...would that be because even in the ring it was the dumbest freakin thing possible?

[EmptyneSs]

yeah jr, Im insecure.

we know already. u watch too much mma and its made u question your own abilities because u are always trying to compare yourself to your mma heroes that u watch so intensly. then u have to come on mma forums and try to discredit other arts while complaining about people doing the exact same thing u do, and post pics of all the weapons u need to carry with u in order to feel like a big man and at the same time act out childhood fantasies of playing with martial arts weapons and being a ninja instead of watching everybody loves raymond with your wife and turning up the heat on your craftmatic adjustable and doing whatever it is that old guys should be doing.

[BoarSpear]

we know already. u watch too much mma and its made u question your own abilities because u are always trying to compare yourself to your mma heroes that u watch so intensly. then u have to come on mma forums and try to discredit other arts while complaining about people doing the exact same thing u do, and post pics of all the weapons u need to carry with u in order to feel like a big man and at the same time act out childhood fantasies of playing with martial arts weapons and being a ninja instead of watching everybody loves raymond with your wife and turning up the heat on your craftmatic adjustable and doing whatever it is that old guys should be doing.

so you still cant explain the butt scoot huh? Its easier to hate me for pointing out the obvious...GJJ has specialized itself right out of reality...even for the ring.

just keep on telling yourself Royler had better options..he didnt have to butt scoot around...he just didnt care how stupid and ineffectual it was...it wasnt like it was an important fight.

BTW sorry if this "old guy' thinks that was the funniest and yet most pathetic freakin thing he had ever seen...it reminded me of the fight scene from Troy when orlando blooms character (the little wuss) wouldnt fight and was crawling around on all fours because thats all he had. In other words he was to scared to stand up and fight because he knew he was incapable of doing so, he had a better chance of winning the fight with the butt scoot

the fight lasted only 28 minutes TOTAL. Royler spent 13 minutes scooting around CHASING SAK with those completly useless kicks...at one point he did this for 8 minutes straight until the bell got him up!!

Sak continually exhorted him to get up...it was pathetic.

[Sensei Saki]

Yup. Interesting deduction. What is not possible today, may be possible tomorrow.I think you mean "it's" or "it is" not "its". Who said
easier to hate me for pointing out the obvious is?Where did GJJ get specialized itself right out of reality?Yes, even that.Chat amongst yourselves.That's what I meant to say.
I heard he did.
It seemed like like it was an important fight.When was this exactly?"It" being what?

[cam427]

The reason he acted the way he did during that fight was because he was completely out classed. He was desperate for Sak to lay down because that was the only way he wasn't going to be badly beaten.

Sak once said (and I agree) that the Gracies put so much emphasis on not being beaten that they fight to "not lose" rather than fighting to win. That was why they used to insist on special rules for all of their fights.