Abu Dhabi lineup

[GROUND CONTROL]

Deeter - I agree with you 100%. It is a known fact that steroids are performance enhancing drugs. They will make you bigger, stronger and faster. The point I am making is that taking them will not make you a champion. You can walk in to any gym in the USA and see plenty of users who will never accomplish anything in the sports world.

Kimo, Ron Waterman, Daniel Bobish, Gary Goodridge have probably all used steroids, what have they won? Steroids are more of a detriment than a help in nhb, wouldn't you agree? This sport requires muscular endurance as well as strength. Stamina as well as speed. Steroids do not assist in either of these areas. The increased weight will actually do a fighter more harm than good.

Take Vitor for example, his career is going much more smoothly as a middleweight. When he was a over blown heavy weight he would lose if he didn't KO his opponent in the opening minutes. Randy Couture convinced him to fight at his natural weight.

And the IOC is more corrupt than the athletes. There are hundreds of substances banned by the IOC. Many are anabolic steroids, growth hormone and EPO. Many others are diuretics, over the counter food supplements and over the counter medicined such as sudafed which wouldn't help anyone win anything.

Many of the flunked drug tests were caused by substances such as ephedrine and sudoephedrine. I did hear of some positive nandralone tests. Anyone who knows anything about 'roids knows nandralone is a healer. It will not put on weight or make you faster etc. I feel the list needs to be shortened. Anyone who watched that poor Romanian girl lose her medal for taking Sudafed I am sure will agree.

I think the US would be the only country at a disadvantage in the Olympics. Steroids are legal everywhere else.

[E1am]

Ground Control has a good point about the fact that the US is one of the few (maybe only) country where steroids are illegal. There really is a lot of misinformation spread in the US about steroids as a result. People think that if you take roids you're going to wake up in a few weeks looking like Mr. Olympia and be prone to murderous rages.

Yes steroids, like all drugs, have negative side effects. But a lot of the horror stories you hear are either circumstantial, a case of steroid abuse (there is a difference between use and abuse), or abuse of some other drug.

Personally I don't like the idea of using steroids or other performance enhancing drugs (I'm not a world class athlete, though) but they shouldn't be illegal. I think the IOC or any athletic governing body has the right to ban them. But the IOC's list is definitely too long. If you had one too many cafe americanos at Starbucks they'd probably nail you for using diuretics.

I read an article in the news paper the other day about the difficulty in dealing with doping and steroid use in sports. According to the article, many doctors say that in the next decade performance enhancing drugs that are undetectable will be developed. What do we do then? Do we finally accept the fact that many of out athletes use these drugs (most are smart enough to end their cycle sufficiently early to avoid detection though)? It will be interesting to see how things turn out when and if these drugs are developed.

[Cleatus Ledbetter]

Ground Control:

Your first response to my post was a personal attack. Why?

I should not have lowered myself to responding with more personal attacks. I will not do that here.

I have been weight training since 1980. I am degreed in Kinesiology, and am a certified strength coach. I do know what I am talking about.

All things being equal the steriod user has an unfair advantage, period. A BJJ black belt would take any roid freak below this rank.

As for being on the East Coast, I'm not. Stay in touch, this little purple belt troll will be in Brazil again at next years Worlds.


Cleat

[GROUND CONTROL]

Cleatus- It was more of an attack on the tone of your initial post. If you have all of the experience you claim, why the negative post? You of all people should know better.

I was a business major who has trained for 17 yrs. I also am a certified personal trainer. If you would like to discuss the pro's and con's of steroids I will be more than glad. I think you will find that I am very well versed in the field.

I really am not into name calling so you don't have to worry about that. Your post was the usual stereotypical steroid post. Do you know for sure if any of those guys take them? Is it anyone's business if they do? Don't you think many people are using steroids who do not look like Kerr or Coleman?

You have a degree, you are a strength coach, tell people facts or experiences you have had. Don't cast aspersions on the net. Alot of people believe everything they read here.

I believe in educating people and letting them make their own choices. Telling people they can't do something will only make them use these things the wrong way. This is how people get hurt. Also saying 'roids are responsible for these guys success encourages people to take them.

You know that steroids play very little part in the makeup of a world class athlete. You will only go as far as your genetic potential will allow. Steroids may give a world class athlete an edge over another athlete who does not take them. But simply taking them will not make anyone a world class athlete.

Who do you study bjj under? I am a Renzo student. Sean Alvarez is also my training partner. Both are great guys. I compete Vale Tudo and no-gi submission so I won't see you at the Mundial. But with any luck you may see me at Abu Dhabi in the next year or two.

[Edited by GROUND CONTROL on 10-02-2000 at 11:04 PM]

[Cleatus Ledbetter]

You are correct about the tone of my first post. I do have a negative attitude about steroid users. I do have friends that use them. One of these guys is very open and never denys using them. I totally respect this and I don't have a problem with this. I just have a problem with people claiming to be drug free that abviously are not.

It is annoying when a guy on drugs comes up to a squat rack next to me with his knees all wrapped up and his squat suit on and he is doing his half or quarter squat, with what I am squating. They do this with a, 'You don't impress me with your strength' attitude. Then they throw a little stink-eye at me. It gets old.

My attitude is the product of many years of these experiences. I need to work on it.

I've trained 7 years traditional Jukido Ju Jitsu, just over three years BJJ. Currently trainining at RCJ Machado, west coast.
I cannot speak highly enough of the Machado's. They are not only great technicians, they are great human beings.

Cleat

[Edited by Cleatus Ledbetter on 10-03-2000 at 10:04 AM]

[GROUND CONTROL]

Cleatus -I totally understand where you are coming from with the shitty atitudes in the gym. But these attitudes are caused by a minute IQ not steroids. These people are jackasses I agree.

I was in Cali about a month ago and took a private from Roger Machado while I was there. He filled in for Rigan who had to go to the new school they opened.

Roger was a great instructor. Very technical and a nice guy. I think a black belt named Chris assisted him as well as a guy that they called El Toro. Those guys really treated me with respect and I hope I made the same impression. Please tell Roger that the 270lb Renzo student says hello.

[Cleatus Ledbetter]

Ground Control:

I will pass on the hello.

What is the condition of Renzo's elbow? Did he lose any training time?

It did not appear to be that serious after the fight with Sakaruba.

Cleat

[EJ]

Baseball:

Sammy Sosa, Raul Mondesi, Juan Gonzales, Brady Anderson....

All these dudes rocked up very quickly. Maybe just hard work... maybe some extra help???

[yusul]

Newbie: i think better choices for the Judoka in your 4 man event would either be Shiro Saigo (a badass who propelled Kodokan Judo to fame around the turn of the century), Yokoyama, (whom Saigo defeated; later, Yokoyama (I'm not sure of the exact spelling) joined the Kodokan and became the #1 fighter), Mifune (the best Judoka i think in the 20's and one of Judo's best strategists of all time) or the infamous Kimura (who defeated 100 straight Judoka with Ippon and also smoked Helio Gracie (on different days of course))
remember, the first 2 were practicing old-school judo with grappling techniques absent in modern Judo. Abu Dhabi rules, the wrestlers will probably win due to better take downs, like someone posted b4.


GC: although i agree with your point that it takes more than steroids to make a champ, i disagree with you other view that the US is at a serious disadvantage because steroids are illegal. first of all, steroids are not illegal in the States, they are a controlled stubstance as far as I know. also, not all U.S. sports federations ban steroids. lastly, America is one of the most pharmacutically advanced nations in the world, and i'm sure you realize that even though steriods are banned in the Olympics, it doesn't stop some U.S. athletes from taking expensive masking agents. I'm not saying other countries dont cheat (a romanian gymnast just got caught, ben johnson in canada), i'm just saying its a level playing field when you consider the advanced technology of the States.

[Edited by yusul on 10-10-2000 at 11:51 AM]

[Newbie]

---yosul

"Abu Dhabi rules, the wrestlers will probably win due to better take downs, like someone posted b4."

Are you saying you don't think Yamashita would have a good chance at throwing Karelin or Baumgartner in a non-gi environment?

[GROUND CONTROL]

Cleatus Renzo is doing great. He was throwing punches the other day without any discomfort. He had no problems extending his arm.

Yusul- Steroids are a controlled substances. It is a federal offense to have them without a prescription. That means that they are illegal. You can be arrested for possesion of steroids. You probably won't get in much trouble but they are illegal.

Of course they are easily attained, especially by Olympic athletes. I am not saying that our athletes do not use them, because I am quite sure most Olympic athletes use them. You are correct that we are one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. I am quite sure that we use that technology to our advantage.

My point is that Athletes in foreign countries such as Mexico, France, Germany, etc can walk into the pharmacy and buy whatever they want. In the US athletes must break the law to obtain these drugs. Or a doctor needs to write them a bogus script.

As for masking agents, check out the IOC's banned substance list. A steroid masker such as probenecid is also on the banned substance list. Many other masking agents are on the list. If we are talking about Olympic athletes, the AAU and the IOC have banned the use of steroids in competiton. What sports federations are you refering to?

[yusul]

Newbie: I dont think Yamashita could take down Karelin, a beast who throws other 6'5 wrestlers around like ragdolls and who hasn't been taken down since his first loss i think, and I don't think he could take down Baumgartner (one of the best competitive pound for pound amateur wrestler of the century) easily, if at all. although under this yr's rules, aren't the first 10 minutes no points? during this time would be the Judoka's advantage since judo has more submission techniques. i didn't have a chance to watch the Abu Dhabi this year. i could be wrong, since the only two people i've actually seen on tv fighting are karelin and rickson gracie. the other 2 on your list i've only read accounts about.

Ground Control: glad to hear that your instructor is doing better and i hope he competes soon, he is one of the more entertaining Gracies to watch in NHB. I concede your point that it's actually harder for the American althete to get drugs cos its illegal in the States and not other countries, and that is definitely unfair, i was just pointing out that the actual end result is the same, a large number of American Olympic athletes, in spite of legal difficulties, do compete on steroids like everyone else. also, even if several masking agents are on the banned list and can be tested for, that doesnt stop companies (not just American) from developing new ones, it's like an arms race.

Re: sports federations, i wasn't talking about American Amateur federations; as far as i know, the NBA and NHL have not banned steroids (i could be wrong), but even if they have banned steroids, these 2 organization s do not do steroid testing, so any steroid ban is only lip service. I have friends involved in both organizations, so i could find out in the future for sure if you really want to know, although i bet the info is on their web sites anyways.

[Edited by yusul on 10-07-2000 at 02:20 PM]

[Newbie]

---yusul

"I dont think Yamashita could take down Karelin, a beast who throws other 6'5 wrestlers around like ragdolls and who hasn't been taken down since his first loss i think, and I don't think he could take down Baumgartner (one of the best competitive pound for pound amateur wrestler of the century) easily, if at all."

Wasn't Yamahita just as dominant in Judo in his prime as Karelin was in Greco-Roman wrestling and Baumgartner was in Freestyle Wrestling? I believe all three won three Olympic Gold Medals in their respective sports.

[Ronin]

Unless Yamashita was of comparable size and strength to Karelin (Jesus, is anyone?), I don't think he would be able to do much of anything with or to him.

The old Karelin, of course.

Just facing reality here, no offense meant to Yamashita.

[yusul]

--Newbie

i agree that yamashita was as dominant power in his field, just like the wrestlers were, and if the tourney was pure submission, i'd lean towards him. however, Yamashita does not have the size and sheer power of (old) Karelin and would not be used to fighting no gi.

Yamashita has better and more technique, but could it compensate for the pure physical abilities and athleticism of Karelin, who has a huge advantage in this department? i think that's what it comes down too. also, the wrestlers would have a lot of experience to counter any takedown techniques. it would be a great fight for sure, because all the fighters mentioned are aggressive. don't get me wrong, i love judo and took it for a short time and i think its very effective. btw, i think Rickson Gracie would lose against Karelin in Abu Dhabi rules (for the same reasons above), but probably not in NHB or pure submission. again, just personal opinion.