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  • #16
    Originally posted by BoarSpear
    if you take an opponent to the ground without hurting him, you just moved the fight...if he also has ground skills you still have to wait for him to make a mistake...if you made a mistake on entry it may be ended with a strike...if you havent stunned or injured him with the throw youre gonna be there AWHILE if he has any skills...judo does stun you, with the throw...and many throws need a setup to get them to work...sure a big steriod freak can pick someone up and slam them...are you a big roid freak? then you might wanna try some other techniques

    Boar is right, even is BJJ we train to, at the very least, distract the guy with strike or attempt to grab the head or anything to disguise the shoot-in, even looking at the guy in the eyes, never at the knees....its very dangerous if he thinks you coming in or knows it.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by BoarSpear
      i stand by the statement dude...sure in a situation where you chose to close and grapple with each other you can get a throw...try that when someone steps back and is prepared to fight...no contact yet and the gap aint closed... if you walk, dive, or duck into grappling range youre gonna get nailed if your opponent can fight...in order to take someone down you have to grasp, and control the body and destroy their root...thats aint so easy on a striking opponent...ps the reason grappling is effective is that most strikers cant land a stopping shot in a fight on a resisting opponent...thats because their stand up game wasnt much better than their ground game...yes you HAVE to know the ground game to defend it...but the gracie butt scoot proves you need stand up MORE unless you can scoot around the ring BEGGING and pleading for your opponent to stop hitting you and fight like a Gracie. The majority of strikers throw shots that can be withstood long enough to get in and secure a hold...that means those thigh kicks from MT are best left out of your arsenal...many strikers go down for that DUMBASS attempt....its GREAT on a guy set up to punch...stupid on someone set to shoot in....

      The most basic rule of a shoot-in take down attempt is that if you cannot touch the guys head then you are too far away, and being too far away opens you up for some serious blows or knees to the head, and better yet, I agree, if you can land a good punch, distract the guy, and then come in, you have a better chance of getting him down, unless youre a Matt Hughes or a world class wrestler like Couture

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      • #18
        Originally posted by OmaPlata
        Boar is right, even is BJJ we train to, at the very least, distract the guy with strike or attempt to grab the head or anything to disguise the shoot-in, even looking at the guy in the eyes, never at the knees....its very dangerous if he thinks you coming in or knows it.
        ...So in other words... grapplers should grapple... the way they are taught... wow. Words of wisdom

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        • #19
          Originally posted by OmaPlata
          The most basic rule of a shoot-in take down attempt is that if you cannot touch the guys head then you are too far away, and being too far away opens you up for some serious blows or knees to the head, and better yet, I agree, if you can land a good punch, distract the guy, and then come in, you have a better chance of getting him down, unless youre a Matt Hughes or a world class wrestler like Couture
          So don't shoot in, and besides, in going from long range to closing the distance the grapplers' advantage is already growing. And, going lower body isn't always the most effective takedown.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by DaNutz
            BoarSpear,

            If I'm around 5'7, avg reach, and someone 6'2 with long limbs and
            athletic build around 210 lbs gets in my face, do you suggest I not try to close the distance?
            Excuse me but is he in your face or not?


            Originally posted by DaNutz
            While I may still get my butt kicked If I try to take the fight down,
            it's a lot better knowing I may have a shot taking it down instead
            of standing up and having no shot in an exchange by someone with even avg non-trained stand-up.
            whats more common people with a sharp object / pointy object / a knife, or people with such good stand up i need to go the ground and risk all the elements that just came into play?

            Originally posted by DaNutz
            If you know of a stand-up art that can diminish such reach and
            strength advantages, Id give it a serious look...Other than
            that I feel grappling/subs is my only shot.
            For sport,no. For SD the knife is nice, FMA and silat can teach you to use them.

            Originally posted by DaNutz
            Two nearly equal sizes (such as MMA) you may be right...But in the
            real world, for me at least, I think your strategy is not the
            best.
            the real world IS where i had most all my fights...it worked just fine.


            Originally posted by DaNutz
            Also is the butt scoot just falling back into the guard?
            for 20 straight minutes scooting around getting kicked? that was waving the white flag...."i cant stand with you"..... "I cant get you down here either"....."BUT IF you will please take pity on me and lie down between my legs".... "I'll have a chance"

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            • #21
              Originally posted by J-Luck
              I would put it the other way Boar, good stand up skills can complement even better grappling skill. Grappling in a confrontation is inevitable due to the unpredictable nature of striking. They are both arts, but striking inherently has more variables making it more difficult to be completly relied on. And I'm definitly not knocking striking ability, I love boxing, it's one of my favorite sports and I box myself. In order to stop grappling from taking place, one must keep the distance, and ultimately attain the knockout(variable). Though I don't agree with Samurai on a double being a practical self defense takedown... because of environment. I would never want to shoot on concrete or pavement... This is where striking is superior... all techniques can be used regardless... But then again, it all depends on the person.

              I'm going back to that. And Boar, because your fights turned out that way, I understand it works for you. But we're talking more as a universal here. Things that work for you may not work for me, but we look for what has the most practicality.

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              • #22
                I also don't go as far to say(some people say it on this site) 90% of REAL fights go to the ground. I'm gonna put that number(personal experience) closer to 65-70%.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by J-Luck
                  I'm going back to that. And Boar, because your fights turned out that way, I understand it works for you. But we're talking more as a universal here. Things that work for you may not work for me, but we look for what has the most practicality.
                  well if you think studying an art put together by dropping the dangerous elements is the way to go, then you go for it...it looks like the secret technique you will be fallin' back on in times of trouble is the butt scoot...practice it well

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                  • #24
                    hmmmm...

                    That's funny, I don't remember bjj being the only grappling art... wow, cause if it is i wrestled for nothing While we're on it though... bjj, is a well qualified art... i would call chokes and arm bars and such pretty dangerous... unless you're forrest griffin, you aint fightin me with no broken arm... and if you do im thinkin i got the advantage... that is of course unless your forrest griffin.

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                    • #25
                      Also... if you read my previous post... its up there a couple posts... some techniques aren't practical in certain situations... such as the double leg. I don't think I would ever hop around on my butt... you seem to be making ignorant generalizations that have no practical value in this debate. The word that comes to mind is rhetoric?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by J-Luck
                        I also don't go as far to say(some people say it on this site) 90% of REAL fights go to the ground. I'm gonna put that number(personal experience) closer to 65-70%.
                        i think the confusion comes in because someone usually winds up on the ground

                        very few fights where someone with skill is present go to the ground...kids, drunks, amatuers and women all fight from the ground as a rule...men do not, the ground is death on the streets and battlefield during h2h combat.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by J-Luck
                          That's funny, I don't remember bjj being the only grappling art... wow, cause if it is i wrestled for nothing While we're on it though... bjj, is a well qualified art... i would call chokes and arm bars and such pretty dangerous... unless you're forrest griffin, you aint fightin me with no broken arm... and if you do im thinkin i got the advantage... that is of course unless your forrest griffin.
                          wrestling is actually superior to GJJ for SD i agree the wrestler specializes in takedowns...something the GRACIES SUCK at...properly executed throws rarely require you to spend the next 45 minutes looking for a submission.

                          the whole idea you are surprised a broken arm doesnt end a fight says you aint EVER encountered a life and death situation...if you stop fighting a enemy soldier because of a broken bone and he takes you on TV and saws your head off with a dull bowie knife, youll see my point a little late...people can and DO fight through injuries in the real world...or they give up....what does your art teach you to do?

                          As for forest griffin...im so glad you get your idols from sports figures...people continue to fight after being shot...stabbed...raped...limbs chopped off...glad you find strength in people on TV...hope you dont set all your standards that way.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by BoarSpear
                            i think the confusion comes in because someone usually winds up on the ground

                            very few fights where someone with skill is present go to the ground...kids, drunks, amatuers and women all fight from the ground as a rule...men do not, the ground is death on the streets and battlefield during h2h combat.
                            Lol, not true at all. Well it is true to a degree, most fights are between stated groups... a LARGE majority. But other than that, no, not really. I guess grappling(be it standing or on the ground) is a natural progression of fighting, you WORK to keep distance, it doesn't just happen. And I'm not so sure it's death on the streets, I've seen plenty of tough dudes go to the ground, whether being jumped, head up, or whatever. Agreed, when jumped, goin to the ground can kill you... but so can getting knocked to the ground and being stomped... grappling isn't all ground though either... a striker is going to have a tougher time getting up when knocked down and being hopped on by 3 angry dudes. Any time you get jumped, you probably are getting beat down, but I'd still rather be a grappler here. Whether it be tosses and takedowns(which can and will end a fight on pavement, tile, wood, concrete or whatever) or ground work, I'd say grappling has the edge.

                            And as far as my observations go... I been in more fights and seen more than most, in MANY different situations and areas than most, skilled dudes, and unskilled alike, so I feel somewhat qualified to speak on it. (fighting is not something to be proud of though, had to learn that the hard way)

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by J-Luck
                              Agreed, when jumped, goin to the ground can kill you... but so can getting knocked to the ground and being stomped... grappling isn't all ground though either... a striker is going to have a tougher time getting up when knocked down and being hopped on by 3 angry dudes. Any time you get jumped, you probably are getting beat down, but I'd still rather be a grappler here. Whether it be tosses and takedowns(which can and will end a fight on pavement, tile, wood, concrete or whatever) or ground work, I'd say grappling has the edge.
                              HAHAHAHAHA a grappler has the edge on 3 people? lemmie see they need about a 5 hour time limit for this? What movie are you living in that grappling is the style of choice for multiple opponents?

                              Where was your fight experience that was so varied? lemmie guess, the sandbox, the couch and the water fountain at recess? WhereTF do you get grappling has "the edge on 3 opponents" over a stand up or fma guy? WTF are you smokin? whatever it is STOP its makin you braindead.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by SamuraiGuy
                                Emmm, I think Dana white and the UFC claim that their have never been any deaths in the UFC, not MMA. And if they did, how old is that fight and where is it, I doubt that fight was after the start of the UFC, and like it or not the UFC was really the birth of MMA competition. Maybe not the very first, but the first one that counted.
                                That is fairly new...I saw an article in a fight mag a year ago, maybe two years ago about it.

                                Still...tally shit up, MMA has very few deaths...I know know of this one (there have to be others) than muay thai (which I THINK is in the lead in Thailand and southeast asian countries...and still is incredibly rare.) boxing (quite a few deaths) and fake wrestling which churns out more deaths.

                                (Real legit wrestling conditioning puts people under through heat illnesses, and football cripples and kills too.)

                                Basketball, I've heard, is the one in which people sustain the most overall injuries...more people involved.

                                MMA promoters have a real need to be safe...they're under a great deal of scrutiny, especially in this country...so the likelihood of a death would be pretty slim.

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