Gi Vs. No-Gi

[Snowman]

New huy here, so sorry if this has been discussed previously, I'd be surprised if it hasn't. I used the search tool and found nothing.

I have a chance to train with Charles Allen who trained under Marcio Simas who trained under Carlos Gracie Sr. Needless to say he is going to be quite experienced, I assume a great teacher, and old school...all classes are gi classes.

Or I can keep training where I am training. With a young cage fighter who trains no-gi all the time. He is pretty good.

I train for self defense, no intention of competing. So my first instinct is that no-gi is better, I mean, we train in shorts and t-shirts, just like what I'd be fighting in if some drunkard decided to get froggy at a bar or the park. But then again, we get so slippery that halfway through class, we can't hardly even hold on to each other, let alone keep an arm trapped for a lock or bar. That's not very realistic...if some guy and I get into a scrap, we aren't going to be all slippery like that. The gi would give a more realistic representation with no slipping out of each others' grips during training. But I feel like I am wasting my time drilling and practicing things like lapel chokes and fighting for position using the sleeves, pants and cuffs of my rolling partner in class. No fool that I might end up scrapping with will be wearing a gi.

Like I said, I imagine this has been discussed ad nauseum, but I can't find any of those discussions so please give me your opinions. Thanks.

[EmptyneSs]

though people may not walk around wearing gis, they all wear some type of clothing. and working with the gi teaches you how to manipulate clothing to your advantage. .

its up to you really, do u want to know how to manipulate peoples clothing to your advantage? or learn how to strangle and finish people with their own shirts? does this seem valuable to you for self defense?

inmop you should train in both so you can be prepared for either situation.

and btw, training with the gi toughens your hands and builds your grip strength like a motherfcker

[Adept]

I've trained no-gi at MMA gyms and gi at the dojos. I like to mix them up both equally.

Training gi, IMO, gives you a better technical feel for the game. You have more handles and as such, less relient on brute strength. No-gi has a technical side, too, but IMO, more reliant on strength.

[Shoot]

no gi for me

I would (and do) train with no gi predominantly. A gi is really a sport uniform IMO. I’ve heard the “what if you’re wearing a jacket” argument before. A gi is specialized to withstand heavy pulling. Clothes are not. When I started in BJJ I was told to start with the gi and then “shed” as I learned to be more technical. When I switched to MMA I found that I had to really adjust for free fighting. It was like learning to ride a bull when I'd been training on a saddled horse. The gi becomes a crutch IMO that you begin to rely on. The whole game changes when you can’t use it and someone is punching you.

I would skip the whole BJJ/gi training and go right into MMA training with no gi.

[lei_kung]

I will agree that Gi and no Gi are almost two different sports. But since we are talking self-defense one isn't better then the other, although both should be trained for it.

Without Gi training the ability to use your opponents clothing against him/save yourself or knowing how to over come the holds he has on your clothing is invaluable. On the other hand at times the opponent might be wearing shorts only or clothing that easily tears, then the no Gi training is king.

Ultimately, I suggest training both ways. If you need to find a few from the class that are willing to roll after class with or without a Gi, which ever is opposite of the class training. On a side note, I've found my game improve when I wear a Gi and grapple one without a Gi.

Lei Kung

[Penance]

There's a difference between sport, self defense, and MMA.

From my experience, they are all valuable training methods.

On the street, if you end up using BJJ on the ground, you'll be glad you're used to grabbing onto cloth, especially pant legs.

But what if they're wearing shorts and a t-shirt? You can still get a choke with the shirt, but you won't have much else to grab on to, obviously.

MMA training (in a gi or not) is different from gi and no gi. Once you throw in strikes, it really changes everything. Certain pure gi and no gi moves suddenly aren't effective and are dangerous (x guard, elbow knee escape). Techniques that weren't high percentage in sport training become easier when you can set them up with the threat of strikes.

Train them all!

[SamuraiGuy]

Okay... here we go....

Start off with a little quote....

"I train with the gi seven days a week, and one day without it"

Who can tell me who said that one?

Also,

The gi removes the ability to use athletiscism, and other physical attributes while rolling in grappling. It may not remove these attributes 100% but it helps to reduce it. This forces both fighters to be more technical as you cant rely on the fact that your 100 pounds heavier than the other guy to get you through. Or the fact that you may be the same weight, but 180 pounds of olympic lifter/football player, is going to have physical advantages over 180 pounds of coach potato, even if they both train the same amount of grappling.

There is also the fact that the gi allows the other person to control you more, how does this help you, it makes your escapes more technical, like the original poster said "we're not going to be covered in sweat", when theres thick cotton pant legs, a thick cotton sleeve, his legs and his arms, keeping your arm in place, your escape will be more technical than when its two sweat drenched legs. Why do you think Royce wore his Gi in his MMA fights, to prevent people from pulling arms out, and why do you think he wanted to wear it against Hughes, a man you would assume would have some knowledge of how to use the gi against Royce?

I believe someone mentioned coats/pants or shorts/t-shirt being more likely. Personally living in Canada, probably pants more times of the year than shorts, with time split between t-shirts and coats/sweatshirts.

I forget who said "How many fights are you going to get into on the beach?"

Or how can No-Gi be more practical, how many times do you square off against a random guy on the street, covered in sweat, wearing a rashgaurd and board shorts?


Does it look like I'm biased towards the gi?

Probably does.

Do you want to know what the answer is, train both.

[Shoot]

I agree that both should be trained for being well-rounded. I’ve even trained in actual “street clothes” with friends just to see how it feels ie. Jeans and an old button down shirt. Gi training does teach you something about that.

The comment that gi training removes a lot of athleticism is absolutely true. However, this is a double edged sword. For one smaller guys can learn to rely on “technical” skills that they cannot do when someone is not wearing a gi. A gi is certainly not the same as a shirt in many important ways.

However something not commonly discussed is how gi training also deprives someone of learning how to use their athleticism. It’s taboo in BJJ class to muscle around on the ground. I personally am stronger than probably 99% of the population. I’m not bragging; I just am. My cardiovascular capabilities are probably in the top 10%. I’ve trained with weights for over 20 years. So, why not learn how to use this strength and athleticism? That was the first thing that I noticed in MMA. I tended to train weak at first. Then, when I turned on my strength I was like a completely different opponent. Obviously, I could come up against someone stronger and must have some technicality, but not learning how to use your athleticism is a mistake. In BJJ I’ve rolled with smaller less athletic people and been beaten. However, in MMA these same opponents are no match, especially if they try their technical skills.

Somewhat of a tangent here, but that’s what I like about wrestling, boxing, and the very basic ground positions and submissions over BJJ. They are less technical and use large movements. Fine movements are much less utility in a free for all fight.

[SamuraiGuy]

99% of the population eh?

With amazing Cardio...

well shit.. you cant be a strongman, or an elite powerlifter.... you'd have pretty good high intensity cardio if you were an elite olympic lifter.. but not much past 20 seconds or so I would imagine...

Jeez you must be the best athlete in the world.

BJJ doesnt say "dont use strength" it says you dont need to use strength... get your techniques down to where you dont need strength, than throw that better than 99% of people strength in there (lol), and no one will be able to stop you.

And the same opponents being no match for you in MMA, that doesnt really have so much to do with size as it has to do with its not BJJ (grappling). Its not just grappling, size is alot more of a factor when you can punch people. There are alot of really really big dudes at my gym who I can tap in BJJ, would I want to have an MMA fight with them, some of them maybe, others no. (I'm talking like.. 100 pound difference).

[treelizard]

Yeah, cos people who live in THE DESERT and don't train at the Ultima wear gis, all the time. I wear mine to work!

LOL, just kidding. Seriously, though, I tried a choke on a fellow desert-dweller with his flimsy cotton t-shirt and uh, his shirt ripped. Now I owe him a t-shirt.... no, he didn't tap out.

[lei_kung]

It isn't just about using collar chokes. The hand-holds any article of clothing gives changes the game. If you train only in no gi you are missing out on many gi-grabbing defenses. You also will have to adjust to your clothing being grabbed and if you aren't ready for it, well you are at a significant disadvantage. Chokes and other offensive techniques using clothing is a fair sized part of the gi game and those get all the glory, but there is much much more to the gi game then that.

Note I suggest training both ways, this was just a response to treelizard about how he ripped the shirt. To sum up, just because you rip his shirt durning a choke in no way invalidates the need to train with clothing hand-holds.

Lei Kung

[treelizard]

I suppose my point is that as unrealistic as the idea of fighting someone on the street who is covered in sweat and wearing board shorts is, it isn't nearly as unrealistic as people in the desert (where Snowman lives) wearing any type of clothing that will withstand any kind of pulling at all.

If there are gi techniques using clothing that people might actually wear here in the drylands that I'm not aware of, I would love to hear about them!!

[SamuraiGuy]

You can cross or "lapel" choke someone with a t-shirt on....

Heres the difference, with the gi, you are using the collar of the gi to cut off the blood flow. The gi pushes into the arteries.

With the t-shirt, you hold the t-shirt, but your hands push into and cut off the arteries, you arent trying to use the shirt to cut off the blood supply, you are using the shirt as something that will keep your hands in place to cut off the blood supply.

[J-Luck]

99% of the population eh?

With amazing Cardio...

well shit.. you cant be a strongman, or an elite powerlifter.... you'd have pretty good high intensity cardio if you were an elite olympic lifter.. but not much past 20 seconds or so I would imagine...

Jeez you must be the best athlete in the world.

BJJ doesnt say "dont use strength" it says you dont need to use strength... get your techniques down to where you dont need strength, than throw that better than 99% of people strength in there (lol), and no one will be able to stop you.

And the same opponents being no match for you in MMA, that doesnt really have so much to do with size as it has to do with its not BJJ (grappling). Its not just grappling, size is alot more of a factor when you can punch people. There are alot of really really big dudes at my gym who I can tap in BJJ, would I want to have an MMA fight with them, some of them maybe, others no. (I'm talking like.. 100 pound difference).

Yo, if he's that strong, he don't need martial arts... he could be ripping mofos to shreds with his bare hands... rip a mailbox out the ground and beat dudes down with it lol...