CLOSED FIST STRIKING TO THE HEAD

[Slider]

I would think that the vertical fist jab would be harder to see comeing at you than the horizontal fist jab giveing you less time to react because the elbow doesnt reach out of the bodys silhouette makeing a less obvious movement.. Any thoughts on this?

[Oberleutnant]

Pit: Nice to see you again dear. My points weren't stressing "learning effective hand techniques are useless" by any means; but rather your initial post seemed to hold the tone of "You suck if you can't punch with %100 accuracy and carry each punch with text book effectiveness under all conditions"-if that were true...then ALL pros must suck. ta ta Cuddlepuppy, time to go water the petunias . . .

-----------------------------------------

"I'm the one who has to die when it's time for me to die, so don't tell me how to live my life." -Jimi Hendrix

[Bad Karma]

This is interesting...

Slider, you're closer to the truth than you realise.

I find it very interesting how someone can speak about something they "think" they know and then disregard everything else...as if they know that, too.

You opt for a punching manner out of preference. You then train that preference - for better or for worse. You will find limitations within that punching manner AND you will find ways of eliminating those limitations. That may mean finding a solution or change altogether.

The draw of/for power has always been from the body structure. Let me say it in common BJJ terms that most can understand and relate to. Posture. You know how important it is in randori, why would it be less important while standing? Good posture means best result from your effort. Bad posture means you've got a difficult time ahead to achieve the same result, if you can achieve the result at all. This means everything from the feet to the actual contact of the fist - working together. This nonsense about CMA's drawing only from the hip is just that; nonsense. The "root" has always been the feet (your preliminary foundation). In JMA's you are told to grip the floor with your toes (gee! wonder what that implies?). Where did this "hip only" stuff come from? That's a very limited understanding of body mechanics, if you ask me.

This stuff about long range advantage to the boxer is crazy, too. If you're not a boxer and you don't train like one, why would you play his game and stay in his range punching it out? That's poor strategy. Good for isolated training, but not a worthy comparison of fighting value.

There are far to many factors behind the delivery of a punch to start comparing the manner in which the fist is verticle, horizontal or somwhere in-between when it connects. Depends on personal preference, training, delivery, the target, and everything else that goes with it.

Connecting with, or placing the power behind, any single knuckle upon contact is foolish. Some think it's the first two knuckles and some think the bottom three. It doesn't matter depending on how you deliver it. The common ground is there is NO SINGLE KNUCKLE! Those are very thin bones in your hand and you must either have "give" in your fist or use them together. Those punches you may have seen with a single mid-finger knuckle sticking out are not designed or intended for heavy bone (like your forehead) contact. Of course, I say that and I know some who train where they can do just that. I'm not THAT fanatic about it, though. My preference. LOL!

One last thing about boxing and martial arts punching. I have known several people in boxing that have broken their hand while boxing. I can count the people I know in martial arts that can say the same (not while boxing - doh!) on one hand. Why is that? Training or punching method?

Peace

[Joe Manco]

Hey we got some good thoughts here.

Slider, I agree w/ Bad Karma that there is truth to what you say ... but there are some "ramifications" too that form another truth that can leave you on the floor. You know, it is really hard to "write" about all this stuff, because as the old saying goes, I can show you better than I can tell you.

Suffice it to say Bad Karma raises many good points, but blunders a bit too. His best point was simply, YES, there are too many variables to be able to write about in a post

Concerning which knuckles to hit with, it's the first three, not the last three - the ones in line w/ the wrist and with more supportive tendons. This is why the pinky knuckle is the one most often broken in the street - it's smaller and has nothing behind it to support it.

Concering why boxers break their hands more, that's a no-brainer. They USE THEM more, FOR REAL. There is no "martial artist" who fights for real with the same ferocity, and frequency, as a pro boxer. Simple as that.

Concerning the "vertical" fist, there are some BASIC RULES to the mechanics of fighting. But, realistically, once you learn the basics in punching, your "style" becomes a matter of your personality. So while there are certain "rules" you have, like don't uppercut from the outside, don't cross your feet when moving, etc., there are also too many different things that can go on in a fight that you simply have to take your basic understanding of the game and apply it IN YOUR OWN WAY.

Are you a mover or a pressure fighter? Do you like the inside, the outside, or midrange? Are you a plodder or an evader? Things like that you can't teach a man. My trainer always told me, "I can teach you the basics, but I can't teach you your style. Your style is who you are ... and that cannot be taught."

Having said that, there are too many "possibilities" to adequately cover in a book, let alone a freaking forum thread ... but within all of that chaos there ARE certain "principles" that form the basics. One of those principles is protecting yourself at all times. Therefore, ideally, each time you throw a punch the mechanics OF throwing that punch ought to protect you at the same time you throw it. This means, when you screw up and drop that hand, or throw an uppercut from too far out, or leave your chin hanging out, this is when you give your opponent the opportunity to capitalize and take you out.

Well, a "vertical" jab is one such opportunity, Slider. You may not flip that elbow over as you say ... but in leaving it down you create an avenue to get yourself starched by a right cross. As I satated previously, on the inside, tight hooks are thrown w/ a "vertical" hand, but hooks are not straight punches (LOL, that's why they're called hooks). And, as such, you can hide your chin behind your shoulder when you throw them and thus protect yourself AS you throw that punch. This is what is called a "tight defense" - protecting yourself as you punch.

If you try a vertical punch from the outside however, thrown STRAIGHT as a jab, you cannot protect your chin on the side you're punching from ... which is why you are a sitting duck for someone who knows what they are doing. This is part of the BASICS of fistfighting, which is why you've GOT to turn that elbow over on a jab from the outside. It should be thrown like a piston, and your shoulder should hide your chin at its zenith. Anyone who says different doesn't know WTF he's talking about.

Hope this clarifies and that's the last I have to say on the subject

Take care.

[Bad Karma]

That's too bad, Joe...

This was your best post the entire thread! I actually learned some details for a different way of punching - thanks, but, dang! We gotta do something about that potty mouth of yours.

Peace

[mild7]

Joe,
I think the problem with communication between us earlier was that you thought I was talking from a "wing chun" perspective.
But as I have mentioned earlier, my fistfighting training lies within boxing.
You have mentioned some pretty good points there, particularly the bit about the lead jab to the body(which is not one of my favourite techniques anyway).
But I have to disagree with your statement that the chin is open with a vertical fist lead jab from the outside. It could be that I myself am a boxer and I am aware of the common right cross counter, or it may be because of my body mechanics.
Anyhow the purpose of this post is to dwell a little on the issue of personal preference.
To say that you HAVE to flip the elbow out(i.e. punch with a horizontal fist) is the only effective way of punching, I have to beg to differ. I punch with a vertical fist even for jabbing and I have not encountered the problems that you have mentioned. I think a bigger issue than fist alignment is the positioning of the shoulder and head while punching.

This is the main problem I see in Wing Chun, it's great art and all but the way they typically stand(straight up with shoulders down even when punching) leaves their chin/throat wide open especially to western boxers. It's not really a matter of fist alignment. I believe JFJKD has rectified this problem of body positioning.

Once again, some of the best boxers have used vertical fist punching(best example is Jack Dempsey, but even Naseem Hamed is fond of using it at times).

Anyhow, having good punching "mechanics" can only get you so far in a fight/match, there are other aspects that are more important, but it makes for good discussion material.

[Slider]

Cool I see what you are saying about the protection issue.. I was just asking btw cause i dont know lots about this stuff and im here to learn (hopefully for the better)..

[Joe Manco]

He he he ...

Bad Karma ...
Just a side note: My "potty mouth" is for fun and entertainment purposes only. Don't let the dirt blind your eyes to the sparkling gems here ... and don't forget also to laugh at the humor

Mild ...
Good post. However, Jack Dempsey (right as you are about him using a vertical fist), was an inside, on your chest, phonebooth fighter ... which (as I said earlier) is the place for this kind of vertical punch, really the hook.

I would not go so far as to say one "can't" effectively use a vertical fist from the outside, but it is simply considered a "no-no" for the reasons previously set forth above. It is slower coming straight like a jab or cross, and it leaves you more vulnerable than the preferred "turn-over" jab or cross. These are the basics, bro.

Just as you do NOT jab on the inside, or cross on the inside, because you are too close to turn your elbow over at this range ... so too SHOULD YOU jab and cross from the OUTside ... and you DON'T uppercut from this range either ... because you are too far out NOT to turn your elbow over. Failing to adhere to this will expose yourself. Simple as that. Hell, you even turn your elbow over for THE HOOK from the outside also.

Why? To protect yourself with the shoulder, that's why.

Doesn't mean you "can't" break these rules ... and even score punches doing so ... it just means you are opening yourself up for your opponent to score some serious counter shots when you deviate from these "basic rules" of fistfighting.

Doing it the proper way makes you have a TIGHT defense during your attack, which (for obvious reasons) is preferred. Doing it counter to the proper way simply makes you have a SLOPPY defense, which in turn makes you more vulnerable, which (for equally obvious reasons) is NOT preferred. It's really as simple as that.

Take care




[Edited by Joe Manco on 10-03-2000 at 04:26 PM]

[J Figg]

Originally posted by Joe Manco
"Concerning which knuckles to hit with, it's the first three, not the last three - the ones in line w/ the wrist and with more supportive tendons. This is why the pinky knuckle is the one most often broken in the street - it's smaller and has nothing behind it to support it."

This is wrong, I don't know who taught you this. We are in fact talking about close fists to the head (possibly hitting solid bone), now look at the shape of your knuckles when you make a fist. Wow, they line up! The middle one sticks out the most, meaning that you have two "lines" of knuckles that can stay in contact with a solid surface at any one time. The last three, middle ring and little, or the first two, the index and middle. Don't believe me? try it on the desk infront of you right now. You cant get your middle, index and ring knuckle all touching the table at once. If you can, you have something seriously wrong with your hands!

Also, the tendons around the ends of the fingers and knuckles are of aproximately the same size, it is the cross-sectional area of the little finger that renders it more prone to breaking from shock damage.

No wonder you have to wear gloves to protect your hands!

"There is no "martial artist" who fights for real with the same ferocity, and frequency, as a pro boxer. Simple as that."

Ah yes, that would be why fights of all weights, even heavyweight often go through twelve rounds (a whole 36 minutes) and still no one has knocked the other to the floor, let alone rendered them unconcious.

Oh yeah, and you don't believe that vertical fists work? You obviously learnt to use them from the same guy who told you to punch with your first three knuckles, LMAO!

If that is true, how come EVERY old style (pre gloves) boxer preferred the vertical fist when striking somewhere hard?

One last thing, you know why boxers wear gloves? Because they were introduced by Queensbury so the "fancies" could be trained to fight, because they thought that fighting bare handed was too rough for them.

(BTW I have total respect for all talented boxers, who actually know what they're talking about, they are among the best and toughest sportsmen, and fighters around, I just don't believe this guy is one! He is either an "arm chair pro", or has recently begun lessons and things he knows it all. Neither of these is an excuse for the way he posts, or the approach he takes, imo. There is a wealth of knowledge infront of you, joe, if only you would open your eyes.)


[/B]

[Edited by J Figg on 10-04-2000 at 01:34 PM]

[Joe Manco]

Hey J. Figg:

You are so clueless, and so unable to absorb information, that I will not reiterate what I said again, s-l-o-w-e-r, so your dumb a$$ can understand it. Suffice it to say that you're a dumb f*ck and obviously can't read.

Congratulations.

[Bad Karma]

Sorry to go off subject, but...

Didn't they (bareknuckle boxers of old) use something called "Brine" to wash their face with in order to toughen up the facial tissue? I read that in some old boxing book and have always wondered what that was. Anyone know? Guess that didn't really work since I haven't heard of anyone else using it.

Peace

[Joe Manco]

Actually ...

I believe "brine" is a derivative of beef blood (correct me if I am wrong), because I remember in Jack Dempsey's autobiography he said he would do just what you said - soak his face in "beef brine" - to toughen his skin.

He said he would also chew pine tar to toughen up his jaw muscles.

All beginning when he was 12 years old ...

[Ronin]

Sounds dumb on the surface, but then again, smacking a makiwara board for hours until your knuckles are bruised and bloody isn't real bright either.

Do the modern pros do anything like this?

[Oberleutnant]

"Brine" is a term normally designated to any solution high in salt content-whether it be salt water or blood. I'm not sure whether or not there is any physiological basis behind it "toughening" the skin.

Ronin: Actually makiwara striking can actually induce physiological adaptations to "toughen" the knuckles; after a few weeks of practice on one, normally the trainee develops thick calluses over the knuckles. After years of continuous diligent training on makiwara and hard-object striking, many trainees have very noticeable calcification around the knuckle joints. I'm sure though this type of training wreaks havoc on the joints in the long run, and is a potent contributor to arthiritis later on.

[Ronin]

Ober:

That's my point. Unless you're going into bare-knuckle competition or streetfighting regularly (i.e. loser), why would you want to risk long-term damage to your hands.

Sometimes, being a badass just ain't worth it.