judo or jiujitsu?

[Justin]

I dont know about you guys but every time i go to a judo school if i mention i am into BJJ all i hear is BJJ stole judo techniques or japanese jujutsu techniques and all the schools and clubs around me are like judo is more effective and japanese jujutsu is more effective cuz bjj stole their art -- and then its like you wrestle the guys and judo black belts feel like bjj blue belts or even white belts on the ground - anyways i was looking through a magazine tonight and i read that judo champion mike swain has a video tape out on judo ne waza or ground fighting and he teaches passing the guard and sweeps and escapes- ok since when do judo people work on sweeps and guard passes?? isnt he stealing jiujitsu and calling it judo?? I know mike swain is a great grappler and so i dont meen to put him down im just trying to make a point - I studied with an olympic judo coach that took a silver in the olympics i trained at that school for years and never saw a sweep or guard pass until i started bjj - what do you guys think?

Justin

http://www.thirdheaven.com

[Ryu (non-working password]

No, not really.

[DIRE WOLF]

Justin I dont know. Is the Samurai sweep origially a judo move?

[John Matao]

Its a strange circle that all these arts flow in.
It started as Japanese Jiu Jitsu and it was all about joint locks, breaking bones and generally devestating your opponent. As it was used on the battlefield there was little point in learning ground fighting.

JJJ evolved over the centuries. Due to long periods of peace
it developed a grounf fighting game also. The techniques were mostly the same as the stand up techniques just applied on the ground.

The Jigaro Kano, took what he felt was the best from all the different styles of JJJ. He created Judo and it was very succesful. Judo fighters actually challenged and defeated JJJ fighters in the late 19th century. It was a Judo man that travelled to Brazil and taught the Gracies his Judo. The Gracies incorporated Greco Roman wrestling and Boxing into the style as well as working extensively on the ground game. They eventually created a style which although spawned from Judo, now had a better ground game than Judo.

When the Judo associations saw this they started incorporating BJJ techniques into their game and claiming that they were old Judo techniques recently rediscovered.
It may even be correct that most of the techniques in BJJ were in old Judo books but there is no way the modern Judoka would be using them if BJJ hadnt shown the need to know them.

Another style derived from Jiu Jitsu is Aikido. Jiu Jitsu is possibly the most significant martial art ever.

[sccr06]

I can see the Gracies use Greco stuff but boxing?
Maybe it's just because you don't see them do standup very often but other than Renzo, it doesn't look like they incorporated ANY striking into GJJ much less boxing.

[Justin]

advanced guard

John thank you for your reply - I pretty much understand the history of the martial arts but what i am specifically asking about is the advanced guard - judo people are teaching advanced sweeps and guard passing techniques that where clearly developed in brazil and designed for bjj tournament fighting - because bjj is not very old the people the invented most of these techniques are still alive today! BJJ is the only style that can say that about its techniques. sweeps from the spider guard, upside down guard, butterfly guard and ways to pass these posistions are clearly not judo. Now i am not bothered that judo players teach these moves and im not even bothered that they lie and say they are judo moves what i am upset about is after they lie about techniques that are clearly from bjj they have the nerve to bitch about bjj stealing their art - am i the only one that feels this way?

Justin Morris

http://www.thirdheaven.com

[troll's lover]

Yes you are.
Go to a search engine, and type in "kosen judo"

Then start reading.