Ryron Gracie... UPDATE!!!

[Hawk]

Gremlin,
Have you ever seen Ryron roll? If you had you'd be impressed. As to no name tournaments, a couple of years ago
Carlos had one of his tournaments in Dallas that he has every couple of months, a "no name tournament" so to speak.
In the Open Division were Travis Lutter, Anthony Perrosh,
Klay Pittman, Rafiel Lovato, Gary Cameron, both Ebarb brothers, Tim Burrell, and Buddy Clinton. That was a small "no name" tournament. Travis won it. Since that time
all of those guys have won or placed in National Competition
and three have placed at the Mundial. The guy that barely beat Ryron on points placed way high in the Mundial last year from what I understand. There are a lot of things that go into being a Black Belt besides fighting, especially under Helio. Travis Lutter has been able to beat a number of Black Belts since he was a Blue and he just made Brown under Carlos. Watch last year's ADCC and you'll see Travis give Cumprido, the guy that beat both Sperry & Roleta, all he wants and Travis was a Purple Belt at that time. One tournament doesn't make a career, but keep watching. Barring
something unforseeable, before its over Ryron will impress you.
Hawk

[Machine]

I know Helio put Ryron in the tournament for experience and to see his skill level, and I understand that. But if Helio is so openly opposed to time limit sport tournaments then why did he put his grandson in one. He does not condone these tournaments and it is evident by him changing and making up his own rules for his tournament Gracie National Tournament. Now I know Rorion made the changes but it was at the direction of his father. To me it sounds like Helio, Rorion, and the Gracie Academy Staff have double standards when it comes to their family.

[Hawk]

Machine,
I don't see it as a double standard as much as the only show in town. Ryron has been training in Brazil? Has he improved? Best way to find out is put him in a stress type position which a tournament will do. Since there are no NTL tournaments there, then put him in the division with the longest amount of time, which is what Helio did. The Gracies' at Torrance believe in NTL and No Points, so although their tournament is different, its still a compromise.
Hawk

[gremlin]

i sure he will impress me.... one day. but like i said he trains with royce and his father everyday and i'm sure he's gotten to train with rickson, royler, renzo and the other gracies. they're some of the best grapplers in the world. do you think any of the other participants in that tournament get to roll with guys like these on a regular basis?? i'd be highly disappointed if ryron wasn't good. but because of who he trains with and because i know he's been training since the kid could walk i'm not impressed. besides like i said if he can hang in the blackbelt division he shouldn't be a purple, he should be at least a brown. and that goes back to what i said about the gracies holding their children back till they're well past ready for the next belt rank to promote them.

[Machine]

Hawk

I totally agree with you that tournaments do great things for you. I also agree that Ryron also needs to check his progress by competing against some of the best. And I wish him and whoever else competres from the Gracie Academy the best of luck in their tournaments. My only question is Helio has stated that he does not support ( and I think I remember hearing he was boycotting) tournaments due to the time limits and especially STALLING. If he is so against these things then why all of the sudden is it ok for Ryron. This is where I got the impression he has double standards. If Helio wanted to stay with his views, Ryron could roll with his family members and I'm sure he would get a good idea where he stands.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Without meaning any disrespect I have to agree with Gremlin. If Ryron weren't a Gracie then he'd just be another quality grappler, not a "name in lights". Holding the black belt back has nothing to do with maturity Hawk, we all know exactly what is going on.
I always hear that Torrance Academy doesn't believe in time limits and points, but I see that as another excuse. If only Helio, Rorion, and Royce could have been humble, like many other role models we have, like Fabio Gurgel and Royler Gracie.

[Karlinhos]

before i make my statements, let me say that i'm not totally pro gracie or against them. sure, i started my training at the torrance academy, but i've also seen things that royce and helio have done or said that i don't necessarily agree with. i think i'm pretty unbiased.

now, that being said, let me respond to some statements:

gremlin, from my experience ryron doesn't necessarily train with royce and his grandfather everyday or even the majority of the time. royce is too busy teaching classes, training for fights or travelling, giving seminars. and helio is in brazil. and i'm sure he's rolled with rickson, renzo and royler, but i highly doubt to any great extent. rickson is too busy running his own school and business and training his kids. renzo is in new york and royler is in brazil. now, about "holding back" belts... puhleeeese... try and tell that to all the anti gracie people out there who whoop and holler that torrance purples can barely hang with other academy's 2 strip blues! based on that, it would seem that maybe they promote too fast! further more, going back to royce... no disrespect to him, but he got choked out in a sport tournament to a formidable valiji, but valiji is FAR from being one of the best out there. so even iff he did train with royce everday, he wouldn't exactly be training with one of the top SPORT JJ guys in the game today. royce is definitely an NHB guy.

machine, yeah, helio has remarked that he doesn't care for TL tournaments. i've never heard of him BOYCOTING or "not supporting" them. i think he's just stated that he thinks that a true test of skill is in a NTL type situation and mainly because of the stalling aspect that a lot of the players exploit. As far as it being "okay" for Ryron... how else is he gonna test the boy's skills??? that's the only type of tournaments in brazil... TL! now, to roll with family members to gauge ability? wtf? "uh yeah... oh, you got choked out by royce, rickson, royler, etc... YOU SUCK!" (lol) of course i'm being extreme and exagerating, but do you get my point? i don't think it's a good to try and gauge your abilities when you come from a family of champions. the best way to test your true abilities, compared to the "normal" competitor out there, is to compete against others OUTSIDE of your normal training routine/academy. it's not a real test if you roll against guys who know your game and you know theirs.

Myagi, "name in lights"??? i bet that the great majority of guys here wouldn't have even HEARD this about ryron had i not posted it! the adcc page is the ONLY place i've seen anyone remark or write about it... and kid is as unbiased a writer as i've ever seen. he just tells it as he sees it, and that's another reason why i posted it.

btw, this was not that small or unknown a tournament. here's an excerpt from the first half of the article:

"The Circuito da Liga Niteroiense (Niteroi is the city across the bay from Rio) had some huge surprises yesterday. The series of tournaments generally does not attract the attention of the top fighters and goes largely unnoticed by the media. This time it was different, throw in R$1,000.00 prize money for each divisional winner and all of a sudden you have World Champions like Vitor "Shaolin" Ribeiro and Marcio "Pe de Pano" Cruz showing up to collect the loot."

[gremlin]

i never said torrance academy held their students back i said the gracies have a habit of holding their children back until they're well past ready for the next belt level. as for torrance i said that they have never produced anyone that can stand on a world level in either sport jujitsu or MMA.

[Karlinhos]

gremlin.... news flash... rickson had his black when he was, i believe, 18 y/o...


[Edited by Karlinhos on 02-02-2001 at 01:52 AM]

[Guest]

what about Rockson. I hear that him and Rorion's kids don't even talk. The only gracie that I'd keep a look out on is Rolls JR. I wacthed some footage of him, "Bad News"!! also I wish Rorion would let his older kids fight NHB (Rickson fought Zulu @ 18) "Ryron Vs. Sak: 2002" could give a lot of respect back to Helio gracie jiu-jitsu as a fighting/self defense art. No sport jiu-jitsu though.

However with Rolls Jr., It's likely that he'd be fighting Vale tudo later on. Like in his mid 20's.

I hear Rockson will be a undefed Vale tudo fighter, but only in his weight class @ under 150lbs. LOL.
also he needs to stop partying with young girls and good weed. But I also support that too. ha ha.

Smoke up Rockson!
Jonny

[Guest]

also, the torrance academy does hold their students back. thats a fact. Just ask Rick, Dave, Steve, ect.....
Just maybe not as much as before royce got cought sleeping in Brasil via Elmer Fud.

[gremlin]

what does age have to do with it?? i didn't say they hold there kids back from getting a black belt till they're 28. i said they hold 'em back till they're well past ready for the next level. maybe ryron was ready to be a black 2 years ago. my point is if he can beat black belts he shouldn't be a purple. as for rickson, from everything i've heard he's a phenom. i may not like or respect him in MMA but when alot of very credible BJJ guys say he's the best even 15 years after he last did sport BJJ, that says something about the man's grappling ability.

[Hawk]

Gremlin,
I don't see that the Gracies' at Torrance hold their kids back. Two examples, first, at last years Gracie National TA
tournament, John Burke & an excellent fighter from Pedero Valente's school took Ryron to the wire. not long before that Dean Lister beat Ryron, I think on points and both were
Purple although Dean got his Brown right after that. The GTA tournament was in August of 2000 so it hasn't been that long ago. Now, if Ryron is being held back, are these others too? I mean does Fabio Santos & Pedro Valente hold people back? I've never thought so. 2nd example. I've got a kid that's 17, about Rener's age, and like Rener, he's a stormbringer. Their skills almost mirror each others at this point. One day one might win, the next it could be the other. They are both the same rank.
Hawk

[Alpha1]

"Ryron is proof positive that pure technical jiu-jitsu taught with a specific teaching methodology like Helio's will at least 7 out of 10 times be able to counter the many watered down, rushed, sport versions of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu out there being taught by people who suddenly decided to strap on a black belt because Brazilian Jiu-jitsu was being considered the system of the 90's."

LOL!! Where are all these fake Black Belts hiding?

KenJeet, are you the guy who thinks (was told) he is going to be a purple belt after 40 private lessons? Now that would be a watered down and rushed Purple Belt!

[gremlin]

i'm not arguing ryrons' ability. if he beat a blackbelt he's obviously very good. my main points are 1) that if he's skilled enough to beat a blackbelt he should be higher than a purple, at least a brown. and 2) if it wasn't for the fact that he's a gracie no one would know or care that he lost in the 2nd round of a small tournament in brazil. everyones blowing this out of proportion because of who he is, not because of what he's done.