any one know some MA history

[traveller]

I was just wondering if some of you would like to present some history on your particular style of martial arts or any martial arts info for that matter.
After reading through a number of threads I can tell there are some folks who could really use the additional information. That is not meant as a slam to anyone, just that if folks no a little extra about how things started and where they come from, they can usually get a better grasp of current situations, styles, events in their field.
If everyone here is a martial artist or a fan of martial arts it should give them some insight into where a lot of the more sensible and intelligent comments come from.
One thing I noted is that reading many of these threads you would think mixed martial arts styles have only been around for a decade or two.
Elsewhere some of the self proclaimed experts would have you believe their particular style of fighting is where almost every great move started.
I am not an expert on every martial art, but some of you probably have some good info that can be passed on.

Let's even go so far as to look at some of the stuff that has little documentation, but has some obvious clues.
Ancient history.
Stand up striking probably came about early on in human existance but calculated controlled tactics were probably very slim. It is more likely that tackling/grappling methods of fighting started to show form earlier and from there the original ground and pound.
Why? It was about dominance and there are few better demonstrations of dominance than pinning an opponent to the ground and having them at your complete mercy.
Furthermore at the very onset of documented history we see writings and art about wrestling. Though there are some references to stand-up striking, they pale in comparisson to the grappling game.
So how about it. Anyone out there have some history of their style or martial arts in general? I for one would like to hear more on this subject from the people who practice it instead of a book at the library.
Your own opinions on why certain tactics would be developed would be insightful as well.

[OmaPlata]

The UFC started in the mid 90s and this thing called BJJ completely and totally spanked every martial art around, total humiliation. OThers were forced to learn or submit lol

[jubaji]

In the beginning, it was dark, and the Lord said "Let there be wrestling!" And the Lord saw that it was very cool, and he was pleased.

[traveller]

Although I do love the post by Jubaji, I think Mike probably has the more reasonable answer.
Extending upon your line of thought I am sure this is how styles or Forms came about.
Someone, probably (but not necessarily) a succesful fighter in their own right, brought together numerous techniques that he employed or those his/her(last time I wil say that , from now his means either gender) oponents employed and tried to see how they worked together to give an even better advantage to himself or his side.
The devlopment of hand to hand arts probably had a similar path to the armed combat path.
When the Greek phalanx was all the rage it stood up for quite sometime, until Philip of Macedonia (Alexander's pop) started using combined force tactics like supporting the phalanx with infantry and cavalry.
What I am saying is once a basic style became the dominant style, others had to learn it just to catch up and come up with other move combinations or new moves and tactics to win.
We know that the european theater has a long history of westling. The greeks and romans employed numerous grappling skills in all areas of combat prior to the phalanx, at which time it was somewhat forgotten and relegated to contest, but then reinstituted grappling and other hand to hand tactics as new techniques by opponents that forced them to now master group tactics as well as individual tactics.
As sword play and held weapon tactics became more skilled and complicated some would argue that weaponless fighting skills were less significant. I would argue that those skills became even kore important. A swordsman that could kick an opponents leg out while feinting a strike would surely have an advantage over one who could not.
Or one that cold lock an opponents weapon with something other than his own, would have a similar advantage.
Anyone want to take it from here?

[traveller]

Wrestling is like I said earlier, one of the 1st martial arts noted in written history. It was not only a skill used by the Greeks warriors but was part of their everyday life according to most historians.
There seemed to be a decline in what we call Greek wrestling as the romas took a larger role in the world. By the time Rome was the preeminanet power the greek form of wrestling had been all but forgotten. The romans were less artistic and believed in more raw power or force to win contest and thus rarely trained in the Greek way.
Around 648 B.C. a sport called Pankration was introduced to the Olympics. The Pankration of today is not a direct descendant of the B.C. Pankration but it's tactics are similar.
Pankration combined ancient forms of wrestling and boxing. These bouts were very brutal affairs. You could win by submission or knockout. To submit one could raise his hand, but depending upon the hold this may be impossible, so submission was often due to passing out or death. According to ancvient documents the only rules were no biting or eye gouging.
Documents also reveal that it was typical to attempt to main or cripple an opponent in these matches. Referees would only interfere if one of the two rules was broken and they used a stick to assault the offender until he stopped.
The Greeks are not the only Eurasian Nation with a long histroy of martial arts, the Russian or Slavic martial arts several thousand years agao as well. Some claim they have been in existance as a true form since 5,000 B.C. but many of these claims are based upon individual family or tribal styles and not an actual regional style.
If we were to take strictly a tribal style or family style we could probably find one in every culture and let them bid for who was first.
Asian styles are the ones most people think of when the term Martial Arts is mentioned. Just about everyone has heard of Karate, Judo or Kung Fu. They have a long tradition and there are probably more forgotten styles of Asian martial arts then there are current styles of all martial arts.
These styles are probably not the oldest either.
India has reference to its own style which I can not remember the spelling of at the moment. Current practioners trace their roots back only a few hundred years, but that I know of there are references to the martial arts of India as far back as the days of Alexander's campaign to conquer the region.
Scholars differ in their opinion of where the first true martial arts style orginated, but I would submit that tribal people of Africa would be good candidates. SOme historians claim Nrther Africa to be the true brithplace of humanity and home to the biblical Garden of Eden. What ever your beleifs if it holds true that Africa was a hub of humanity and civilizations (Kush thought to be one of the oldest) then organized militaries and fighting styles probably saw there origins here as well.

[traveller]

sidebar

About 30 mins ago my 3-year-old son pulled my wrist to his shoulder, wrapped his legs around my forearm with his feet pushing my shoulder and rib and tugged pretty good. If he weighed a bit more (I can still curl his current weight) he probably would have made me submit to letting him get out of knap time.
What's the penalty for losing to your 3-year-old son.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

A long time ago, our early ancestors figured out that you could smash skulls with rocks. We made weapons out of rocks, sharpened them, attached them to spears and hunted. Then if some Neanderthals got in our face, we would steel off them so fast with our weapons.

If two of same clansmen or family members got into a fight, they would fight without weapons and try to pummel eachother to the ground with their fists.
This type of fighting was organized into contest, not a sport, and our h2h combat was invented. Ofcoarse this was used to "defend" yourself from other humans as well.

We(as in cro magdons) might have invented technique based systems to defend ourselves against the powerful Neanderthals. Most likely we then invented the small knife.

Then combat martial arts like wrestling and gung fu(which are the oldest MA's, because even JJJ, Karate, all the eastern crap came from old Gung Fu right) spread their influence around Earth which evolved into several styles.
The practitioners of these styles abided by tradition so much that they eventually strayed away from what real combat was. The styles that were left pure and were being modified were the sportitive styles. Ofcourse the traditional styles had alot of effectiveness for a while...their techniques were good but the system itself was to rigid.....It wasnt like water in other words.

Then Judo came along and turned the techniques of JuJutsu practical once again. While other countries had their native wrestling styles, Judo had an edge because it used strangle holds, leverage based throws, and other crippling subs(that were hundreds of years old) that could be practised efficiently.

Up to more recently, some guy named Bruce Li, who was a Gung Fu practicioner, exposed MA's for what they really were. He didnt belive in one best style but a whole combination of techniques that could be used fluidly in a real combat scenario. That along with hard training was to him a good system. He saw no use for MA's that stuck to tradition and ettiquette. Like Olympic Karate in his time. He said it was just a "glorified game of tag". So he then started full contact events. He taught his idea of combat to everyone, not just Chinese students.

He became an enemy of the CMA community and was challenged to fight a Gung Fu practicioner for the right to teach students of all races. So they fought, ok true story im not making this up, i saw it on a Bruce li documentary. The CMA guy had been running circles around him and even ran away from him at one point during the fight. With in a couple minutes, Bruce had grabbed a hold of him, took him down and put him into some sort of chokehold. Ofcoarse the Gung Fu guy didnt think it was a legit win but left anyway. Bruce said the guy's training had been so rigid that his moves couldnt work. BTW im not making this up. Look it up.

From there on you have Gracies who exposed everyone's lack of ground fighting skill. So then while everyone evolved from the knowlege of BJJ, the Gracies sort of just stood still and didnt progress. Thus we have MMA, that is a sport now but can be used in real combat as long as its combined with other non-sport types systems.

"Using no way as a way, and using no limitation as a limitation."-Bruce Li

Please, dont tear my post appart, and dont quote it, it is what it is.

[traveller]

Well it looks like the discussion is limited to just four so far.

You’re dead-on on all points I think Mike. That was a great observation about the natural instincts we have even as children.
I have pondered the survival instinct often. You can also notice a natural reaction of kicking as a defense when cornered or on the back. I assume this is about keeping distance, but also the limitation of using foot-n-leg as a weapon unless you have some training in the area.
Back to grappling, wrestling, etc. It is odd that anyone would make claims against grappling being of no use in the modern fight arena. Even odder that they would discount it’s military use. As you stated history has hundreds of references to grappling techniques, whether they be from a standing position of a ground position.
It should also be noted that if you are training an army, you would look for hand to hand techniques that can be used by all of your soldiers. Let’s face it, not every guy can be a good puncher or kicker and it tends to rely more on strength than do most grappling techniques. Grappling techniques would be the skill you would try to pas on in a generic fashion before striking. Not that you wouldn’t incorporate “striking”, but “grappling” would have to be your base.
Even the guys who tend to claim grappling is dead in MMA, seem to overlook that a clinch is actually grappling. Standard boxing can’t even get a way from it.
I am not sure what the first things anyone else learned were when it comes to fighting someone with a weapon, but I know the first thing I was taught about facing an opponent with a knife.
I remember the police officers who use to come to our grade school and talk about safety. Some of us boys made a bunch of cracks one day and were subject to an after school session. Part of that session was correcting our stupid comments about guns and knives. Now this instructor was a very good “Kung Fu guy” as we use to say, but he didn’t show us a kick or punch or anything very fancy. He showed us how to step in, disable the arm and take the guy to the ground without getting cut.
I am sure this skill was not something he created. It more than likely traced its roots back to when it was likely that majority of people you ran into were familiar with the use of bladed weapons.

[traveller]

sorry 5 posters. I forgot to refresh

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Traveller did you read my post?

[traveller]

I'll call you SEVEN since I can't remember all the rest of that stuff. Good stuff, I will only correct this. Grappling and punching were used in the military all the way up to -- today. So the invention of the rock weapon and the knife didn't really result in hand to hand being a contest-only style of fighting.
Bring us some more info. You obviously have some coherent thought going on about the subject.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

If "wrestling" was the first formalized martial art, what might have been the rules? The rules definetly werent the modern one's. I think the oldest form of wrestling, wasnt for show or spectacle.....I think the rules were no striking, biting, scratching, and eye plucking and that's it. So it was actually "Grappling", not "wrestling".

But why grappling? Its probably because it could be applied easily to striking and weapons. Because grappling teaches you to use your hands and arms in a pushing motion(like punching or stabbing), it helps you to not fall down or get back up to your feet quickly. Plus, it gives the athleticism thats needed for combat. It also gives you the dexterity to perform in equitement and handle weapons. It provides a clear objective in how you want to finish a fight, whether it be grounding your opponent with strikes or KOing him on the feet without the possibility of you being wrapped up and/or taken down.

[jubaji]

damn, that fish smells rotten!

Please, dont tear my post appart, and dont quote it, it is what it is.

I'm not surprised you felt the need to add that last bit. Whew!

[traveller]

I just returned from Wal-Mart and I think we are all wrong. Martial Arts started because good people needed to eliminate rude shoppers from the gene pool.
Today I discovered we have completely failed the mission.

[traveller]

SEVEN. Your observation about grappling seems like sound thought, and it is most likely that grappling in a raw form existed well before wrestling. As Mike stated it is a natural reaction to grab things. Let's face it, for the unskilled it is easier to try and hold on to someones arm than make a good block. Just watch a new boxer try to block an experienced amateur boxer.