Mentality devide: Wrestling/BJJ

[Tom Yum]

Royce probably knows at least ten times more submissions that Hughes, whos knows nothing more than the standard arm bar and rear naked choke, and kimura, like every white belt. Hes never completed a sub near as complex as even a omaplata, like Royce has.

I agree that Hughes may lack the same submission proficiency. But greater mobility, control and athleticism gives Hughes the advantage of securing position, which is necessary for submission.

Gracie has the upperhand in experience but it can't make up for Hughes ability to get position.

[Dale B.]

I think the reason wrestling matches are faster paced than jiu jitsu matches is solely due to the gi. Of course there are the exceptions for the fast jiu jitsu guys and certain matches that are very high-energy and exciting, but for the most part the gi slows everything down.

The difference between gi and no-gi is sufficient evidence. No-gi is much faster paced allowing to 'slip' out of submissions and positions. Wearing a gi allows the practicioner to stuff a shot easily, or grab material easily slowing down the match forcing each person to rely on out thinking their opponent rather than out hustling or our powering them. Thats my thoughts on it.

[Tom Yum]

I think the reason wrestling matches are faster paced than jiu jitsu matches is solely due to the gi. Of course there are the exceptions for the fast jiu jitsu guys and certain matches that are very high-energy and exciting, but for the most part the gi slows everything down.

The difference between gi and no-gi is sufficient evidence. No-gi is much faster paced allowing to 'slip' out of submissions and positions. Wearing a gi allows the practicioner to stuff a shot easily, or grab material easily slowing down the match forcing each person to rely on out thinking their opponent rather than out hustling or our powering them. Thats my thoughts on it.

Good points.

[jubaji]

rely on out thinking their opponent rather than out hustling or our powering them.

I don't think those things are mutually exclusive.

[MasterGrappler]

I agree that Hughes may lack the same submission proficiency. But greater mobility, control and athleticism gives Hughes the advantage of securing position, which is necessary for submission.

Gracie has the upperhand in experience but it can't make up for Hughes ability to get position.

It looked like Royce went for a kick or elboe and they both kinda fell into Hughes landing with side control. Once there, it was pretty much over or at least a stalemate. When 2 guys are great on the ground, ofter one wont escape and one wont finish. Thing is, Royce is a Master on the ground and you'd think he would have done better than a white belt could have done, but he didnt. As he did attack and lost position due to that, it still shouldnt have ended that way.
Its a greater upset than Tyson Douglas. Not the fact Hughes won, but the way he won. He made Royce look like what Royce made everyone else look like in the early UFCs ( I saw them all live) when they had no ground game. Ridiculousness. If you didnt know who Royce was, youd never think he was even a black belt, let alone a master, Id guess he was a white belt with 6 months experience. As far as position, I guesses at best if Hughes got position like he did, that he could have dragged Royce to the cage, held him down and GNPd him. But NEVER in the middle of the ring.
Oh well, put a young current black belt out there like Penn and you see how Hughes got dominated and almost submitted, again.

[Tom Yum]

Oh well, put a young current black belt out there like Penn and you see how Hughes got dominated and almost submitted, again.

There comes a certain point where skill and strategy become indistinguishable between fighters of two different styles. Penn is indeed a prodigy in grappling. I missed that fight.

[danfaggella]

Thank goodness this thread came back to life. Great stuff.

[J-Luck]

Royce probably knows at least ten times more submissions that Hughes, whos knows nothing more than the standard arm bar and rear naked choke, and kimura, like every white belt. Hes never completed a sub near as complex as even a omaplata, like Royce has. Poor Royce looked like a white belt in that fight though. It was GREAT to see the HUghes -the wrestling great and greatest ever weilterwieght blah blahblabh- get his ass handed to him AGAIN by a way better fighter

The armbar he performed on GSP, though not black belt level, was fairly advanced.

Eddie Bravo stated such 3 times I believe(watch the fight and count). And I'm pretty sure even you will agree that Bravo is more advanced than yourself. That being said, you are wrong, almost totally so.

[MasterGrappler]

The armbar he performed on GSP, though not black belt level, was fairly advanced.

Eddie Bravo stated such 3 times I believe(watch the fight and count). And I'm pretty sure even you will agree that Bravo is more advanced than yourself. That being said, you are wrong, almost totally so.

This tool loves any attention I give him. lol. Guys, he has been private messaging me stuff like "dude, I know you're an advanced ground fighter, but lets be friends, I'm here to learn. Ok buddy? Please, please let me lick your balls"
What should I do? Let him lick them just to shut him up??
-Back to the topic, Hughes is probably, at least equal to a purple belt in BJJ if it was No Gi training. Maybe a new brown, at best. You saw how Penn totally controlled him in all aspects. Put the Gi on him and hes a blue at best, he'd get choked and controlled. You dont have to be 'advanced' to pull off tight arm bars, they are the most basic submission there is just about. Bravo is a tool no unlike yourself, but he smokes buds at least

[Dale B.]

Put the Gi on him and hes a blue at best, he'd get choked and controlled.

I have to say he would be a purple belt with the gi. The wrestling coach where I train (we have a boxing and jiu jitsu coach too) is a purple belt in jiu jitsu, but he doesn't really talk about it. Most guys who wrestled in college can make purple belt fairly easily. I also know another guy who wrestled in college and has his purple belt. Having a good wrestling base makes it hard to sweep them, get them off of you in side mount or north south. Teach them basic moves like armbars, and you got a purple belt. Even if you watch the Mundials and Pan Americans at the black belt level, majority of the time there are no crazy submissions like the twister (which is now illegal I think). Its all basic things (like armbar, triangle, choke) done with a high attention to detail.

Even when Rickson Gracie came to my old school and rolled with one of our instructors, he said "Being a fairly new blackbelt, I was excited to roll with him, thinking I was going to see some very advanced jiu jitsu. But it was all basic moves but done with excellent timing and great sensitivity." Meaning you can do the simple move on the advance person if it is timed right and you are sensitive enough to feel their movement, weight placement, etc. Just my .02

[J-Luck]

This tool loves any attention I give him. lol. Guys, he has been private messaging me stuff like "dude, I know you're an advanced ground fighter, but lets be friends, I'm here to learn. Ok buddy? Please, please let me lick your balls"
What should I do? Let him lick them just to shut him up??
-Back to the topic, Hughes is probably, at least equal to a purple belt in BJJ if it was No Gi training. Maybe a new brown, at best. You saw how Penn totally controlled him in all aspects. Put the Gi on him and hes a blue at best, he'd get choked and controlled. You dont have to be 'advanced' to pull off tight arm bars, they are the most basic submission there is just about. Bravo is a tool no unlike yourself, but he smokes buds at least

That was totally stupid. You just helped me show what an idiot you are. BRAVO(far more qualified than yourself) said the setup for the armbar was advanced jiu jitusu. I'm sure you'd love to debate him?

I've already owned you in like 40 posts... You show a strong lack of crit. thinking, intellignece, and overall social skills(and this is just on the internet!).

[J-Luck]

This tool loves any attention I give him. lol. Guys, he has been private messaging me stuff like "dude, I know you're an advanced ground fighter, but lets be friends, I'm here to learn. Ok buddy? Please, please let me lick your balls"
What should I do? Let him lick them just to shut him up??
-Back to the topic, Hughes is probably, at least equal to a purple belt in BJJ if it was No Gi training. Maybe a new brown, at best. You saw how Penn totally controlled him in all aspects. Put the Gi on him and hes a blue at best, he'd get choked and controlled. You dont have to be 'advanced' to pull off tight arm bars, they are the most basic submission there is just about. Bravo is a tool no unlike yourself, but he smokes buds at least

I would never private message you. In fact, I'm no longer going to reply to your posts. I had about 10 posts in that last thread where I tore you apart. You've yet to reply to any points last time I checked. You're a troll on this forum.

[J-Luck]

I have to say he would be a purple belt with the gi. The wrestling coach where I train (we have a boxing and jiu jitsu coach too) is a purple belt in jiu jitsu, but he doesn't really talk about it. Most guys who wrestled in college can make purple belt fairly easily. I also know another guy who wrestled in college and has his purple belt. Having a good wrestling base makes it hard to sweep them, get them off of you in side mount or north south. Teach them basic moves like armbars, and you got a purple belt. Even if you watch the Mundials and Pan Americans at the black belt level, majority of the time there are no crazy submissions like the twister (which is now illegal I think). Its all basic things (like armbar, triangle, choke) done with a high attention to detail.

Even when Rickson Gracie came to my old school and rolled with one of our instructors, he said "Being a fairly new blackbelt, I was excited to roll with him, thinking I was going to see some very advanced jiu jitsu. But it was all basic moves but done with excellent timing and great sensitivity." Meaning you can do the simple move on the advance person if it is timed right and you are sensitive enough to feel their movement, weight placement, etc. Just my .02

You were right in everything you said... obviously oma hasn't a clue what going to a level above white belt means.

It's always the best wrestling, judo, bjj, sambo instructors that are telling you in practice to drill the basics. There is a reason for that.

[MasterGrappler]

I have to say he would be a purple belt with the gi. The wrestling coach where I train (we have a boxing and jiu jitsu coach too) is a purple belt in jiu jitsu, but he doesn't really talk about it. Most guys who wrestled in college can make purple belt fairly easily. I also know another guy who wrestled in college and has his purple belt. Having a good wrestling base makes it hard to sweep them, get them off of you in side mount or north south. Teach them basic moves like armbars, and you got a purple belt. Even if you watch the Mundials and Pan Americans at the black belt level, majority of the time there are no crazy submissions like the twister (which is now illegal I think). Its all basic things (like armbar, triangle, choke) done with a high attention to detail.

Even when Rickson Gracie came to my old school and rolled with one of our instructors, he said "Being a fairly new blackbelt, I was excited to roll with him, thinking I was going to see some very advanced jiu jitsu. But it was all basic moves but done with excellent timing and great sensitivity." Meaning you can do the simple move on the advance person if it is timed right and you are sensitive enough to feel their movement, weight placement, etc. Just my .02

Nothing could be farther from the truth. You need to have a hell of alot of mat time and submission experience to get to purple, in fact, most advanced purples know as much as a black belt they just cant get the positions or subs as fast or as tight. There are no 'crazy submissions' where? In no gi or gi? There are plenty in No Gi like the ADCC, just watch Roger Gracie or marcelo Garcia. Furthermore, through the Gi into the mix and you have all sorts of crazy chokes, 100s of them literally, and all sorts of sweeps.
and moves like the armbar and the triangle are moves we all do from day 1 and are the most basic and most trained, thus theyre going to be the most often applied.
Hughes might be equal to a brown belt with no gi, AT BEST, but any random wrestler who comes into a BJJ studio, as I and anyone else who trains there knows, they get tapped out by white belts. They dont 'jump' to purple, though if they are phenomenal or very very strong they can jump to blue in 5-6 months

[MasterGrappler]

You were right in everything you said... obviously oma hasn't a clue what going to a level above white belt means.

It's always the best wrestling, judo, bjj, sambo instructors that are telling you in practice to drill the basics. There is a reason for that.

really? i guess I dyed my belt blue, lucky for you since youd look even stupider being tapped out by a white belt like me, wait, that happens anyway with you. LOL. T O O L