Mixed Martial Arts, One of the oldest forms of fighting.

[WuChi]

That reffers to no style btw. The fact that only a moron would say oh, hes a so and so. Unless he is a mindless robot,he will be active and human, when the going gets tough real human nature presents intself.

[Shard]

Maybe I`l come back to the forum in another 4years and see if you are any further forward caus at the moment your stagnent, like an old pond. I mean there are some really stupid posts out there.

You fail at posting. When you come back in four years please spend some of that time learning how to type. That or kill yourself.

[Uke]

MMA is NOT self defense, but it is about as close as it comes to being in an unarmed one on one fight.

Exactly. Its like a Civil War reenactment. Its as close as you can come to reality without the reality. You've got the uniforms and guns with no bullets.

Let me ask you something: What's the difference between kickboxing in the old days of Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace and MMA of today aside from the BJJ thrown in? The answer is that there is no difference except kickboxers were better at standup. They still are today, as we see MMA fighters getting knocked out left and right once they venture out of the waters of mediocrity and into elite kickboxing events like K-1.

The same thing happens once MMA fighters wander over to elite grappling events like the Abu Dhabi.

In other words, the so called evolution that is MMA is great as long as they stay in the pond where their talents are about equal.

MMA seeks to do the exact same thing. Practicality in every component included.

Now you've made it clear that you full of shit. How is everything in MMA geared towards practicality and they will circle each other for sometimes over a minute before engaging each other? That's practical? Is that supposed to be "as close to reality as you can get"? Are flying armbars and flopping to the guard a part of that practicality too? Is shooting in practical when you don't know what you're shooting into?

When you set you people of roughly equal skill together, it will almost undoubtly take time for the one who is either more skilled or more cunning to emerge the victor.
Lets take chess as an example. Suppose you put 2 chess grandmasters in a chess match. It can be hours before a victor emerges. But if you put a beginner agaisnt one of these masters, he/she will undoubtly lose very fast.
How long did each of Royce's opponents last in the first UFC? Not very long.
Heck, lets just take that Karate guy from the first UFC, Gerrad. How long did his opponent last? 30 seconds?
How long did Wanderlei sliva last agaisnt Vitor Belfort? 44 seconds?

Get the hell out of here. Those are the exception, not the rule. For every MMA match that ended quickly you've got 20 more than went to the cards. I've seen Gracie have a match that lasted over 20 minutes. His match was Severn was a classic case of what I'm talking about. You'd call Gracie's fight with Severn reality? It was a submission wrestling match, not the kind of encounter you'd see in a street environment.

You are talking out of your ass here. MMA has never been about strength vs strength. Strength vs Weakness has been the goal everytime. If the former were true, then royce gracie would have never won he first UFC, hell he would have never proceeded past the first fight.
If i know that my strength is in taking my opponent to the ground and submitting him and my opponent's weakness happens to be his inability to fight on the ground, then obviously i will take him down and submit him. Or vice versa (Chuck Liddell anyone?)

How many times have we seen two MMA fighters brawl it out in the ring? When Wanderlei Silva got his ass beat by Vitor Belfort, he knew Belfort was the superior striker, but he attacked strength anyway. When Ken Shamrock fought Don Frye, he knew Don Frye was the bigger and stronger man, and he knew his own strength was NOT striking, but he attacked strength anyway. Same when Minowa decided to duke it out with Baroni. Minowa knew he was over-matched but wanted to show how tough he was. The list goes on and on and on.

So now jabbing and a couple of kicks are dangerous and uncautious actions? I'd hate to see 2 street fighters being "cautious". The very fact that a person is fighting on the street is in it self being the opposite of cautious. By fighting on the street there is only one outcome. You will get hurt. It just boils down to who will get hurt more, you or your opponent?

First off, in a street fight there is no fight until the people are in striking distance. None of that bullshit that you see in the ring. Until people are within arms reach, there is no fight. And once you're in close quarters, you keep it there as best as you can and finish it. You don't push the guy away, put your hands up and start circling. You seriously watch too much television if that's your idea of reality.

And sorry to burst yet another of your bubbles, but both parties do not always get hurt in street fights. Well, if they're fighting like you they might. That says something about your own training if you think that before even going in you WILL definitely get hurt.

[J-Luck]

Actually, MMA fighters favor the method that they do because it makes for more competitive fights, not because its the most effective way to end a fight.

MMA has been around since about 1996-1997. Some NHB veterans created a style comprised of ring techniques to make some of the younger guys more competitive. Low thai boxing kicks. Decent boxing hand skills. Decent wrestling and submission skills. They basically made a crash course in boxing and kickboxing along with submission wrestling and taught it to most of the new guys who wanted to compete.

Some people love to say that MMA is predicated and shows what works, but it totally neglects the close quarter range aside from some thai knees. MMA, and systems like say ... kajukenbo are NOT the same.

Kajukenbo is an eclectic style, but it isn't a mixed martial art in the same regard as MMA. Kajukenbo and other styles that are eclectic are combined over time after seeking practicality in every component that they include. These arts were created so that weaker opponents could stand a chance and survive an attack against stronger opponents.

MMA is a system of ring proven techniques including BJJ that are meant to help a fighter pace himself, keep a certain distance and go for a couple of rounds. While every MMA fighter would love to win as quickly as possible, we often see that they don't and such is the necessity for rounds.

Very few styles, including traditional martial arts are 100% of themselves. Most styles borrow ideas and methods from other systems and styles. Whether is a choke, hold, lock or even certain strikes can be seen in many systems, but were borrowed from another source.

But the difference between those TMA's and MMA's is that the TMA's devoted to self defense were always seeking a quick conclusion and developed their methods towards getting them. MMA's create professional athletes that can circle each other for 3 or 4 rounds, jabbing and throwing low kicks and the occasional high roundhouse, until one guy executes a throw or shoots in and tries to make it a ground affair, neither ending the fight.

MMA pits strength against strength, which has NEVER been the goal of combat. You're supposed to attack weakness, not strength. TMA systems have always relied on counter attacking, although there are times when a strong offense needs to be used. But even then it works off surprise, or an explosive, abrupt initiation. This is why so many people have been lost and think that they've reinvented the wheel with MMA. They don't realize that there is a difference between self defense and dueling(MMA).

In self defense, you attack weakness or take advantage of unawareness.

MMA is basically a duel, or mutually agreed upon combat. All your cards are on the table. Your opponent knows you're going to attack. Your opponent knows how you generally fight. You and your opponent both KNOW that the worst that is going to happen is getting knocked unconscious, and therefore don't mind taking unnecessary risks and won't fight as cautiously because you KNOW that your life isn't on the line.

You don't have the luxury of that knowledge beforehand in reality. You don't have the luxury of knowing that you won't get gang stomped if you lay on the ground to work submissions. You can't tap out. You can get stabbed or shot at any point. So you HAVE to fight differently because the combat environment is different.

Combat is about survival against unknown odds.

MMA is about imposing your will against an opponent that has agreed to follow rules so that the damage can only go but so far. No subtleties. No awareness. No weapons, which is as real as it gets.

If anyone thinks that reality fighting is based on mutually agreed combat, then they need to get their money back from whatever gym has been selling them fool's gold. Knowing that the worst that can happen in a fight is something other than death changes everything completely. It becomes a different animal. Its like changing a bull into a cow. They both look similar, but which would you rather play matador with?

Obviously. But it's pretty close, and it's certainly the closest humane way to train for combat to date. So much so that the Army has already adopted it as it's empty handed combatitives and even uses Bjj techniques to fight against knives(and they do this full contact, using a stungun in place of a knife).

You underestimate MMA too much, but your basic point isn't far from the truth.

[J-Luck]

Exactly. Its like a Civil War reenactment. Its as close as you can come to reality without the reality. You've got the uniforms and guns with no bullets.

Let me ask you something: What's the difference between kickboxing in the old days of Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace and MMA of today aside from the BJJ thrown in? The answer is that there is no difference except kickboxers were better at standup. They still are today, as we see MMA fighters getting knocked out left and right once they venture out of the waters of mediocrity and into elite kickboxing events like K-1.

The same thing happens once MMA fighters wander over to elite grappling events like the Abu Dhabi.

In other words, the so called evolution that is MMA is great as long as they stay in the pond where their talents are about equal.



Now you've made it clear that you full of shit. How is everything in MMA geared towards practicality and they will circle each other for sometimes over a minute before engaging each other? That's practical? Is that supposed to be "as close to reality as you can get"? Are flying armbars and flopping to the guard a part of that practicality too? Is shooting in practical when you don't know what you're shooting into?



Get the hell out of here. Those are the exception, not the rule. For every MMA match that ended quickly you've got 20 more than went to the cards. I've seen Gracie have a match that lasted over 20 minutes. His match was Severn was a classic case of what I'm talking about. You'd call Gracie's fight with Severn reality? It was a submission wrestling match, not the kind of encounter you'd see in a street environment.



How many times have we seen two MMA fighters brawl it out in the ring? When Wanderlei Silva got his ass beat by Vitor Belfort, he knew Belfort was the superior striker, but he attacked strength anyway. When Ken Shamrock fought Don Frye, he knew Don Frye was the bigger and stronger man, and he knew his own strength was NOT striking, but he attacked strength anyway. Same when Minowa decided to duke it out with Baroni. Minowa knew he was over-matched but wanted to show how tough he was. The list goes on and on and on.



First off, in a street fight there is no fight until the people are in striking distance. None of that bullshit that you see in the ring. Until people are within arms reach, there is no fight. And once you're in close quarters, you keep it there as best as you can and finish it. You don't push the guy away, put your hands up and start circling. You seriously watch too much television if that's your idea of reality.

And sorry to burst yet another of your bubbles, but both parties do not always get hurt in street fights. Well, if they're fighting like you they might. That says something about your own training if you think that before even going in you WILL definitely get hurt.

I agree with 2 points here. Fights rarely are over in seconds and if I'm in a fight I'm makin sure I don't get hurt(though it doesn't always work that way).

Other than that... again, you are underestimating MMA.

And your examples of MMA guys are hardly well founded. You're talking STRICTLY MMA guys. Like trained from the beggining MMA. Most MMA guys started off, wrestlers, bjj practioners, judoka, thai boxers, boxers, and such. Some of them(not the majority, but a large enough minority to be taken seriously) are amongst the elite in their respective categories(abu dhabi champions, k-1 champs, and such. No boxing champs yet cuz of money issue).

[Uke]

Obviously. But it's pretty close, and it's certainly the closest humane way to train for combat to date.

Bullshit.

You could go out and learn more about combat by attending the Dog Brother's open tournaments a few times than you could doing MMA for years. But guess what? Most MMA guys won't do it because it actually takes SKILL that takes time to acquire and not just toughness and professional athlete level conditioning to win.

This is a great point because most people who want to learn how to protect themselves won't be in the shape that a professional athlete is in. But they CAN still be effective if they use the most efficient methods and don't waste energy wrestling with a guy who might be twice their size. Proof that MMA isn't an efficient method is that it doesn't work once you're fighting someone significantly bigger than you.

If a guy who is 150lbs fights a guy who is 225lbs using MMA, he's going to get into trouble. He can get lucky and I STRESS luck, but the odds are against him. He'd be basically kickboxing the bigger guy, as those are the skills that MMA push for in their fighters. Once the bigger guy landed one solid shot the smaller guy would not only be hurt, but even if he wasn't he'd be hesitant to continue fighting.

And by the way J-Luck, I'm not underestimating anyone or anything. Whatever MMA fighters do, there's a traditional martial artist that does it better. Put an MMA fighter in a kickboxing event and they get knocked out. Put them in a grappling tournament and they get tapped or choked out. Put them in the boxing ring and they'll catch a terrible beating.

So where is it that I'm underestimating something, J-Luck?

So much so that the Army has already adopted it as it's empty handed combatitives and even uses Bjj techniques to fight against knives

The army has adopted everything as some point or another. Boxing. Kickboxing. Kung fu. Karate. Judo. Jujitsu. Ninjitsu for stealth methods. Wrestling. So don't go on about MMA being special because the army took a stab at it. People train in MMA to be competitive, not to learn to survive. And by the way, every newaza technique you see isn't BJJ. Newaza was jujitsu way before the Brazilians knew what jujitsu was.

No boxing champs yet cuz of money issue

And there probably won't be boxing champs for decades. Not only because of the money, but because boxers, unlike MMA fighters, know who they are. They don't pretend to be something that they're not. They know that just because they can throw a decent kick doesn't make them a thai boxer. They know that just because they can fall backwards with someone in their guard doesn't make them a BJJ player. They know who they are and master their craft, something MMA fighters never seem to do. Jack of all trades but master of none.

A cougar can paint all the stripes he wants on himself, but he'll never be a tiger.

[Sagacious Lu]

Most MMA guys won't do it because it actually takes SKILL that takes time to acquire and not just toughness and professional athlete level conditioning to win.

This is, without exageration, one of the stupidest things I've ever seen posted on the internet.

[Uke]

This is, without exageration, one of the stupidest things I've ever seen posted on the internet.

You obviously haven't been reading what you've been writing lately.

[Uke]

Many martial artists would do well to emulate those things.

Very well put.

[J-Luck]

Bullshit.

You could go out and learn more about combat by attending the Dog Brother's open tournaments a few times than you could doing MMA for years. But guess what? Most MMA guys won't do it because it actually takes SKILL that takes time to acquire and not just toughness and professional athlete level conditioning to win.

This is a great point because most people who want to learn how to protect themselves won't be in the shape that a professional athlete is in. But they CAN still be effective if they use the most efficient methods and don't waste energy wrestling with a guy who might be twice their size. Proof that MMA isn't an efficient method is that it doesn't work once you're fighting someone significantly bigger than you.

If a guy who is 150lbs fights a guy who is 225lbs using MMA, he's going to get into trouble. He can get lucky and I STRESS luck, but the odds are against him. He'd be basically kickboxing the bigger guy, as those are the skills that MMA push for in their fighters. Once the bigger guy landed one solid shot the smaller guy would not only be hurt, but even if he wasn't he'd be hesitant to continue fighting.

And by the way J-Luck, I'm not underestimating anyone or anything. Whatever MMA fighters do, there's a traditional martial artist that does it better. Put an MMA fighter in a kickboxing event and they get knocked out. Put them in a grappling tournament and they get tapped or choked out. Put them in the boxing ring and they'll catch a terrible beating.

So where is it that I'm underestimating something, J-Luck?



The army has adopted everything as some point or another. Boxing. Kickboxing. Kung fu. Karate. Judo. Jujitsu. Ninjitsu for stealth methods. Wrestling. So don't go on about MMA being special because the army took a stab at it. People train in MMA to be competitive, not to learn to survive. And by the way, every newaza technique you see isn't BJJ. Newaza was jujitsu way before the Brazilians knew what jujitsu was.



And there probably won't be boxing champs for decades. Not only because of the money, but because boxers, unlike MMA fighters, know who they are. They don't pretend to be something that they're not. They know that just because they can throw a decent kick doesn't make them a thai boxer. They know that just because they can fall backwards with someone in their guard doesn't make them a BJJ player. They know who they are and master their craft, something MMA fighters never seem to do. Jack of all trades but master of none.

A cougar can paint all the stripes he wants on himself, but he'll never be a tiger.

Your first point is just your opinion... and only a sub-par opinion at that. MMA is the sport version of Jeet Kun Do(though it has never been marketed that way, and didn't start off that way). How is taking the most effective aspects, strategies, and techniques of different arts innefective?? It takes a great deal of skill. You must have me mistaken for the kind of MMA guy who strictly goes to an MMA gym. I plan on going to an MMA gym(not currently a member) to bring it all together... but currently I wrestle, practice BJJ, boxing, and am hoping to start kickboxing. These are all seperate endeavors... and that, in my opinion, is how MMA SHOULD be done. It has nothing to do with luck, and everything to do with skill, technique, conditioning, and strategy.

I already stated that there are plenty of elite in MMA. You can't see that, then you need to take your bias clouded goggles off. 0.

The army never adopted those. You are wrong. They adopted elements FROM them. Trained with their instructors. Never adopted them. This is official now. Bjj on the ground and stand up. Also MMA elements.

BJJ guys took the judo principle(randori for non-dangerous techniques) and ran with it. Judo turned it into far more a sport than a martial art. Bjj brought back all of the locks not allowed or trained in Judo, and took the newaza to a whole new level.

Lol again wrong. They don't join becuase of the reason I stated. Not because of your idiot antics.

I would name all of the successful outside of MMA guys there are, but I dont have enough time, nor space. So, since you are so immeasurably wrong and misguided, give me one weight class, in the UFC, and I will give you 5 guys who are majorly successful outside of MMA in a fighting art.

You must learn to become a critical thinker, employing logic, and always asking, "why?" Rhetoric only gets you so far.

[J-Luck]

This is, without exageration, one of the stupidest things I've ever seen posted on the internet.

All I gotta say is, "True dat"

[Sagacious Lu]

And there probably won't be boxing champs for decades. Not only because of the money, but because boxers, unlike MMA fighters, know who they are.

This, however, is wholly and completely true. Boxers understand very, very well that they are athletes and sportsmen. You won't find many boxers who even care one way or another how their abilities stack up against some other form of fighting. Boxers do not spend any time - none - worrying about whether or not a BJJ guy could beat them on the ground, or whether a Thai boxer could knee them to death. They are totally indifferent. They love what they do, for whatever reasons they love it, and they seek accomplishment and achievement within that craft without any need for someone who has no understanding of their craft's approval or endorsement. That's one of the things I love so much about boxing - it's self-integrity and honesty. Many martial artists would do well to emulate those things.

I agree with you but your point is equally valid for all sportsmen although for some reason Uke wants to exclude MMA. MMA fighters as a whole don't worry whether they can beat a judoka in a judo comp. or a boxer in a boxing match because they train for their rule set.

[Uke]

It's strange, Uke. I think that concern with how one art stacks up against another is both the single greatest failing and the single greatest strength within the martial arts world. It's a paradox, I know, but think about it. By being so concerned about which art or style is better, you get a collection of people who'll likely never reach any measure of their potential because they're always doubting their own path. You also develop the mindset that it must be one way or another. Asking which style is better assumes that one must be worse, and that keeps people from taking what works for them from anywhere they find it. That is, after all, what any real warrior throughout history has done, isn't it? Learned anything that would give him an advantage in battle, regardless of where it came from?

At the same time, competition spurs evolution. We wouldn't see nearly as many people cross training and trying to become well-rounded fighters today were it not for MMA popping up. Bruce Lee tried it, but even he couldn't win over the masses like MMA did. Now everyone - even non-fighters - will tell you you have to be well rounded to win a fight. They're still in competition mindset, but it's a step in the right direction. After all, I think we can both agree that there's no fightsport more limited by the rules of its conduct than boxing, but we can both still get on board there, right? Why should MMA be any different? It encourages people to "mix" their martial arts, and I think in the long run, that's a good thing.

This topic is getting interesting...

A couple of things.

I am not discussing what is better. I am pointing out some details to those who preach that MMA is the sum of all combat.

Warriors have learned what will help them in combat. But being that it is the consensus that MMA is not combat, but a sportive mock-reality event that pits kickboxers against each other with an element of ground submission wrestling, this becomes a point to debate only if we wish to waste each other's time.

Competition does NOT spur evolution, Mike Brewer. Necessity does. That's why you haven't seen any changes in MMA since NHB events spawned it. The entire reason that MMA came to be is because fighters needed a way to be able to find a way to deal with brazilian jujitsu while continuing to hone their stand up skills. Hence, the crash course that is MMA was born. But you haven't seen any innovations since because there was no need for one. That's why SD and UC systems are much more intricate, thorough and practical. Systems like FMA were fighting against knives, which meant they were fighting for survival. Not some quick fix answer to do better in mock competitions.

Its a known fact that when there is a necessity, an art will evolve and flourish to meet the needs of the people. Judo was brutal until Kano refined it and made it sportive. Aikijitsu was a maiming art before Ueshiba found religion and made it Aikido. Karate was a vicious fighting style where everything was full contact and the sparring alone was as intense as today's MMA. Now we're just talking about the sparring.

Last but not least, the creators of MMA did not do what Bruce Lee was attempting to do. Actually, they're doing the opposite. Bruce was an advocate of each man finding his own way, and his own methods while adhering to certain scientific and common sense principles. When you look at Bruce's students, their movements were different because they had different body types. You can't teach Kareem Abdul Jabbar to fight like Dan Inosanto, because they're two way different body types with different attributes. People are unique. So, he enhanced what was strong about those men and attempted to compensate for what was weak. MMA just teaches kickboxing with some submission wrestling, and because those two ranges are different they called it mixed martial arts. Its hardly the same thing.

In eclectic arts, the system may borrow certain strikes and techniques from other styles, but the methods are completely different. Just because a style uses a low thai roundhouse or knees doesn't mean that your approach to fighting will be that of a thai fighter. Just because you system uses hooks and uppercuts doesn't mean that you use a boxer's approach to fighting.

In MMA, when they adopt techniques, they also adopt the approach of using the technique from the system of its origin. If they want to call it reality, they should make the ring the size of an office elevator. They should have to stay in close quarters and forget about the posturing bullshit, because in the street there is no range except for CQ unless you're in a shoot out. But guess what? That would take away the entertainment value and they would lose money. And in the end, that's what its all about to the men who own these events.

[jubaji]

more pearls of stupidity from pUke

If they want to call it reality, they should make the ring the size of an office elevator.

.......................

[J-Luck]

J-Luck,
I'm not trying to take sides here, I swear. I have agreed with the majority of things you post here, and I have seen eye to eye with Uke (especially about sport fighting) on many occasions as well, so I have no dog in this fight.

However, I'd like to submit a comment for your consideration. Uke mentioned that boxers don't care about how their skills match up outside their own sport. He also mentioned that most MMA guys get beaten when they try their hand at events like K-1 where the rules are specifically tailored to a different kind of fighting. I don't think he's contesting that MMA guys have lots of impressive achievements in their backgrounds. I think the point (or one of them) is that once a fighter chooses MMA, that's really all his skill set supports. Sure, a good MMA guy can be average at boxing or kickboxing, but he's still best at MMA. Slap a different set of rules on him, and he loses something. It's true that only a limited number of MMA guys have done well in events like K-1, and fewer (none that I'm aware of, although Berto comes from an MMA family) have parlayed their athleticism or hand skills into success in the much higher paying world of boxing.

I don't think the argument is that MMA guys can't fight outside their own set of rules. Rather, I think it's that they will always fight better within them. Most streetfighters would fail miserably in a MMA event. Most boxers would lose pitifully at a sport BJJ event. Those are things that we can accept without egos being bruised, so why get defensive about someone saying that MMA guys are the same as the rest of us?

I agree 100%! My only point was that I could name plenty of wrestlers, sub grapplers, bjj practioners, judoka, kickboxers, muay thai fighters, sambo fighters, and so on that have done very well within those systems, and THEN IN MMA. I firmly believe in order to learn true self defense one cross-trains. Maybe I mean MY brand of MMA is truly effective(by that I mean training in multiple arts in order to become proficient in them all... not dabling here and there hoping to pick up a move or two as you progress. I believe that's what Uke is assuming MMA is. Where most MMA guys fall is somewhere in the middle of what him and I think.