Mixed Martial Arts, One of the oldest forms of fighting.

[Tom Yum]

Just curious.... can you describe these throws??? Im aware of many throws that can kill or cripple people if executed a certain way, but they are still used in competition.

I guess you're right.

San Shou (Red) vs. Kyokushin (blue).

I've been told the goal of shuaijiao (chinese wrestling) is to throw your opponent from the greatest height possible so as to do the most damage. Sanshou borrows from shuiajiao if I'm not mistaken - kind of follows the same scoring rules as freestyle wrestling in that you get more points for a bigger throw.

Anyhow, a throw like this is just a little on the scary side...

[Uke]

Tom Yum

The reason why karate, kung-fu and savate lost its popularity in the US is because they became less and less full-contact and more and more excercise; other traditional martial arts like muaythai, kyokushin and jiujitsu (both traditional and brazillian) never lost their full-contact, spontaneous flavor.

The instructor still has to pay bills and if he can't give customers what they want, he'll have to close his school. Apparently, many who train in MA want easy training and are happy to shell out the $$$$ to get the next rank, shed a few pounds and learn about another culture. The MMA movement has taken the students that tried out these kinds of schools and could not get dynamic, live-training.

I have trained with Korean/Japanese/Chinese stylists who were the real deal, so I know those systems can be effective. I've never doubted them, because I have seen them use their stuff - but its the fact that these men (MA instructors) had to water down their training to keep their business running and reduce injuries in their dojang or guan.

I'm not an MMA nuthugger, but I'm not arguing opinions here.

This is the exact point that I was making and some still don't understand it, Tom. All anyone had to do was read what was I wrote on the previous pages of this topic. Perhaps coming from you that point will be a bit more palatable.

[jubaji]

Anyhow, a throw like this is just a little on the scary side...

That looks mighty familiar...

[Tom Yum]

Yeah, but that would never work for real. It's a sport move, and trying to do something like that will get you killed. In fact, you're being very, very irresponsible for even suggesting that anyone interested in real self-defense even watch this video....

Can you imagine that throw on a sidewalk? Owtch!!

That's a riot..lol.

The arguments between combatives or TMA vs. MMA always polarize into reality vs. sport, when in fact both are correct.

There are reality-based or traditional systems that teach useable moves that are unfamilar to the sports world, but work because they are technically sound AND no one has seen and aren't expecting it. A really, really good example of this is the Tukong Musool system that is used by the Korean SF - the master instructor took what works from traditional Chinese and Korean arts - and these guys have proven themselves effective in close quarters well before they demonstrated it in Vietnam. Another example is the Yoshinkan Aikido system used by the Japanese police force. If I'm not mistaken, they use many open handed strikes to set up restraining locks and sweeps.

Likewise most of what is used in combat sports is practiced religiously against resisting opponents and works under live fire because it is practiced as such. Boxing and wrestling work because they train against opponents that resist and strike or grapple in return; knocking someone out by a punch or by a choke is enough to stop a fight. Most TMA instructors will admit that boxing is an effective striking method and that they themselves would have difficulty handling a boxers hand speed and power.

If I'm not mistaken, the Marines switched from LINE to MCMAP because the LINE system injured too many Marines during practice and that Marines killed people in civillian life when they themselves were assaulted. But to say that the new stuff doesn't work is also silly, as getting lapel choked or arm-barred are equally crippling and deadly, except you can practice them without losing training partners.

[Tom Yum]

Yeah, but that would never work for real. It's a sport move, and trying to do something like that will get you killed. In fact, you're being very, very irresponsible for even suggesting that anyone interested in real self-defense even watch this video....

Can you imagine that throw on a sidewalk? Owtch!!

That's a riot..lol.

The arguments between combatives or TMA vs. MMA always polarize into reality vs. sport, when in fact both are correct.

There are reality-based or traditional systems that teach useable moves that are unfamilar to the sports world, but work because they are technically sound AND no one has seen and aren't expecting it. A really, really good example of this is the Tukong Musool system that is used by the Korean SF - the master instructor took what works from traditional Chinese and Korean arts - and these guys have proven themselves effective in close quarters well before they demonstrated it in Vietnam. Another example is the Yoshinkan Aikido system used by the Japanese police force. If I'm not mistaken, they use many open handed strikes to set up restraining locks and sweeps.

Likewise most of what is used in combat sports is practiced religiously against resisting opponents and works under live fire because it is practiced as such. Boxing and wrestling work because they train against opponents that resist and strike or grapple in return. Most TMA instructors will admit that boxing is an effective striking method and that they themselves would have difficulty handling a boxers hand speed and power.

If I'm not mistaken, the Marines switched from LINE to MCMAP because the LINE system injured too many Marines during practice and that Marines killed people in civillian life when using the system for self-protection. But to say that the new stuff doesn't work is also silly, as getting lapel choked or arm-barred are equally crippling and deadly, except you can practice them without losing training partners.

[Tom Yum]

So what is a traditional martial art?

Muaythai is often called a ring sport, but its been around for atleast 1,000 years. Prior to its modernization in the 1920's, matches were fought to the death. Does this make it a combat sport or a traditional art?

Kyokushin karate holds kumite and is done full-contact, but the founder, Mas Oyama, studied Chinese kenpo as a youth and then Shotokan as a young adult. Does this make it a mixed martial art or a traditional martial art?

Judo, the gentleway, was a refinement of Jujitsu designed to take out the moves that were too deadly. Is this a combat sport or a traditional art - afterall it is called the "gentle way" which to some may sound feminine. Even jujitsu means the "gentle art" even though the moves are far from gentle...

[Tom Yum]

That looks mighty familiar...

Yeah, it is. Grappling arts have as much crossover as striking ones. Heck, I bet shuaijiao probably has alot of overlap with freestyle

[BoarSpear]

I guess you're right.

San Shou (Red) vs. Kyokushin (blue).

I've been told the goal of shuaijiao (chinese wrestling) is to throw your opponent from the greatest height possible so as to do the most damage. Sanshou borrows from shuiajiao if I'm not mistaken - kind of follows the same scoring rules as freestyle wrestling in that you get more points for a bigger throw.

Anyhow, a throw like this is just a little on the scary side...

Yeah that throw isnt any fun, but its a Shuaijiao throw, NOT a Mongolian wrestling throw. There are only 4 acceptable ways to throw a man in mongolian wrestling, that wasn't one 'em...NONE are legal in ANY competition.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Yeah that throw isnt any fun, but its a Shuaijiao throw, NOT a Mongolian wrestling throw. There are only 4 acceptable ways to throw a man in mongolian wrestling, that wasn't one 'em...NONE are legal in ANY competition.

Yeah that was just a normal lifting double leg, but what are these "4 acceptable ways to throw in mongolian wrestling"? I would really like to know.

[DickHardman]

This is the exact point that I was making and some still don't understand it, Tom. All anyone had to do was read what was I wrote on the previous pages of this topic. Perhaps coming from you that point will be a bit more palatable.

no uke, that was not the exact point you were trying to make. tom yum in no way claimed that mma training is useless for self defense applications. nor did he try to tell highly esteemed instructors that their way is wrong.

[DickHardman]

Muaythai is often called a ring sport, but its been around for atleast 1,000 years. Prior to its modernization in the 1920's, matches were fought to the death. Does this make it a combat sport or a traditional art?

Kyokushin karate holds kumite and is done full-contact, but the founder, Mas Oyama, studied Chinese kenpo as a youth and then Shotokan as a young adult. Does this make it a mixed martial art or a traditional martial art?

Judo, the gentleway, was a refinement of Jujitsu designed to take out the moves that were too deadly. Is this a combat sport or a traditional art - afterall it is called the "gentle way" which to some may sound feminine. Even jujitsu means the "gentle art" even though the moves are far from gentle...

i also find it odd/humorous when i tell people i train in jiu jitsu and muay thai and then they claim that i dont train in a tma lol.

[Uke]

no uke, that was not the exact point you were trying to make. tom yum in no way claimed that mma training is useless for self defense applications. nor did he try to tell highly esteemed instructors that their way is wrong.

I never claimed anything was useless. You're just not bright enough to walk away understanding what I wrote obviously.

The point that Tom made that I had previously written had to do with why SD teach MMA and how keeping the doors open is the most important thing.

Somehow you outsmarted yourself and missed that.

[Uke]

That looks mighty familiar...

Of course that throw looks familiar, jubaji. Its what happened to you as a child and completely explains your acute retardation.

[Tom Yum]

There are only 4 acceptable ways to throw a man in mongolian wrestling, that wasn't one 'em...NONE are legal in ANY competition.

Cool. I've only dabbled in freestyle wrestling and it was an intermural university club, nothing like the midwest division wrasslers some of our fine institutions of learning has produced.

Most of the throws involved grabbing a leg/legs (single leg, double leg, fireman's carry) or leveraging the hips (souplet/souplex, hip toss, hip toss -leg sweep). I didn't learn that many throws - just a few with variations on each.

I'm reading between the lines here, Boar....

Mongolian wrestling throws probably involve throwing by securing the head and or groin?

I've seen a varation on a combatives-style takedown that involves pulling the groin from behind while simultaneously shoving the head forward - is this what you are referring to?

[jubaji]

Yeah that throw isnt any fun, but its a Shuaijiao throw, NOT a Mongolian wrestling throw. There are only 4 acceptable ways to throw a man in mongolian wrestling, that wasn't one 'em...NONE are legal in ANY competition.

'cause theory-boy wants to feel 'too deadly!'