Grappling?

[J-Luck]

Problem with Greco Roman is no leg defense. Freestyle is truly the most complete of the pinning wrestling styles.

[Penance]

I don't get how you can give BJJ a lower "score" for ground control than Judo.

Yeah, I know Judo has newaza. It's just not even in the same league. You haven't really truly suffered until you've had a BJJ purple belt or higher purposely control you.

[Shard]

By all means Judo is fine. BUT, you can't just pick a school that teaches judo and think you can handle yourself well in MMA. You got to make sure that they have a large enough emphasis on the ground.

I occasionally train at the judo club in my school and i can tell you they do not. I repeat DO NOT teach ne-waza at all. While they do ne waza rolling there is no formal teaching of ne waza. Hell, the head instructor won't even roll. Practically the only thing they ever do if they roll is to pin/turtle. Which will not help you much in a MMA scenario.

Personally i would say if you had the opportunity, take BJJ. There are less variables you have to worry about and less to do to transition to a MMA setting.

Judo is still a viable option. My MMA coach's grappling background is Judo. But he has changed the way it is taught so that the transition has already been done for us. We avoid turtles as far as possible, Our takedowns are
very similar to amature wrestling takedowns.

I'm not too familiar with Greco Roman so i won't comment about that.

[kuk sool won]

Any old school in basically all arts are not going to be good enough to build a basis for MMA. I think the point that was being made was a school that focused more so on ne-waza than the usual Judo school could be a viable option.

[SamuraiGuy]

I don't get how you can give BJJ a lower "score" for ground control than Judo.

Yeah, I know Judo has newaza. It's just not even in the same league. You haven't really truly suffered until you've had a BJJ purple belt or higher purposely control you.

Are you shitting me?

Personally I've been under BJJ Blackbelts (also UFC a UFC competitor) when they are trying to control you, a rather large BJJ brown belt who moves with ease and has the funnest knee on belly you can imagine, and a purple belt who's game revolves around north/south.

I've also had a 140 pound 4th Dan in Judo pin me to the mat like it was nothing, the judo pins are harsh and they are worse than BJJ controls.

I'm not saying the Newaza is in the same league, I'm saying in pins and control, it is better, I've put that 4th Dan on his back and passed and submitted him, but if I'm on the bottom (which is by far where my jiu jitsu is the strongest) I get raped.

J-Luck the takedowns of Judo dont plummet, ever heard of Karo Parysian, he put Sanchez on his ass more times than Sanchez (a gnp wrestler style guy) put him down. Ever heard of a guy called Fedor. And these are just the obvious examples, Judo when No-Gi is just like Greco-Roman, except your allowed to attack the legs.

Ground control I've already defended that point.

And Sub Defense I would say is worse than BJJ, because in BJJ all they go for is subs (see how Judo's emphasis on control gives it better control, and BJJ's emphasis on subs and as a result sub defense makes it better in that respect).


Dont get me wrong, I've done more BJJ than I've done Judo, but Judo is the most well rounded, if you can only pick one it is the best, without a doubt.

[Penance]

Are you shitting me?

Personally I've been under BJJ Blackbelts (also UFC a UFC competitor) when they are trying to control you, a rather large BJJ brown belt who moves with ease and has the funnest knee on belly you can imagine, and a purple belt who's game revolves around north/south.

I've also had a 140 pound 4th Dan in Judo pin me to the mat like it was nothing, the judo pins are harsh and they are worse than BJJ controls.

I'm not saying the Newaza is in the same league, I'm saying in pins and control, it is better, I've put that 4th Dan on his back and passed and submitted him, but if I'm on the bottom (which is by far where my jiu jitsu is the strongest) I get raped.

J-Luck the takedowns of Judo dont plummet, ever heard of Karo Parysian, he put Sanchez on his ass more times than Sanchez (a gnp wrestler style guy) put him down. Ever heard of a guy called Fedor. And these are just the obvious examples, Judo when No-Gi is just like Greco-Roman, except your allowed to attack the legs.

Ground control I've already defended that point.

And Sub Defense I would say is worse than BJJ, because in BJJ all they go for is subs (see how Judo's emphasis on control gives it better control, and BJJ's emphasis on subs and as a result sub defense makes it better in that respect).


Dont get me wrong, I've done more BJJ than I've done Judo, but Judo is the most well rounded, if you can only pick one it is the best, without a doubt.

I train under a Moreira->Roy Harris lineage. I just looked it up, and Moreira is apparently very well known for his Judo, so maybe that's where the people I train with get it from.

I just can't imagine the controls getting any nastier than what I've already experienced, so you may be right. I just assumed that the control positions I've learned and been put in were standard in BJJ. Now I feel even more fortunate to train where I do!

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

What some people dont seem to realize that virtually every throw in Judo that you can do without a Gi, is already in wrestling.

And if someone trains Judo just for competition, their subs/ground game is gonna be shit compared to a BJJ player, and theyre also gonna be missing half of their takedown game.

[DickHardman]

According to the Kodokan, a good Judo match should be about 70% standing and 30% on the ground. in my experience, the more competition oriented the instructor, the more the ground percentage goes up. my first instructor at San Jose State was of olympic caliber, and liked to train us 50/50, one day tachi waza, next day ne waza.

And as to the double leg question which someone else already answered, just to reinforce: they are legal and becoming more and more popular in fact with the popularity of MMA. again, my first instructor actually devoted a pretty good amount of time teaching us to defend double and single legs and in general the wrestler's approach to grappling, since some other universities like to throw their wrestlers into competitions.

by that description id have to guess that david williams was your instructor?

[Shard]

What some people dont seem to realize that virtually every throw in Judo that you can do without a Gi, is already in wrestling.

And if someone trains Judo just for competition, their subs/ground game is gonna be shit compared to a BJJ player, and theyre also gonna be missing half of their takedown game.

To the first point, correct me if i am wrong but Greco Roman doesn't have much of a focus on subs does it?


I agree that a Judoka's sub game will be somewhat lacking in comparison to a BJJ guy. But chances are he has a better takedown game than a BJJer.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS12baXecHE[/YOUTUBE] Karo Parisyan, you can see quite a few judo throws being done without the Gi. Its all a matter of changing handles from the Gi to various parts of the body.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

To the first point, correct me if i am wrong but Greco Roman doesn't have much of a focus on subs does it?


I agree that a Judoka's sub game will be somewhat lacking in comparison to a BJJ guy. But chances are he has a better takedown game than a BJJer.

Karo Parisyan, you can see quite a few judo throws being done without the Gi. Its all a matter of changing handles from the Gi to various parts of the body.

Ofcoarse greco roman doesnt have focus on subs.

And Karo Parisyan isnt the only fighter who can throw without a gi. He just practices it alot cause thats pretty much the only thing he's good at. His striking is sloppy and he's still not that good on the ground. If i remember correctly, Diego double legged him and took his back in the first 30 seconds of their fight. In fact, Diego passed his guard multiple times whereas Karo only passed into half guard twice.

[SamuraiGuy]

What some people dont seem to realize that virtually every throw in Judo that you can do without a Gi, is already in wrestling.

And if someone trains Judo just for competition, their subs/ground game is gonna be shit compared to a BJJ player, and theyre also gonna be missing half of their takedown game.

YOUR JUST SAYING EXACTLY WHAT IM SAYING, BUT YOU THINK YOUR COUNTERING MY ARGUMENT!!! ARGGHH!!! *pulls hair out*

Dude your saying exactly what I'm saying, even if you do have half the takedown game, and half the sub game, you have BOTH. If you can only pick one grappling style, You dont need a full takedown game, or a full sub game, you need a little of both!

THE WHOLE PRINCIPLE OF MMA!, Instead of it being "striking and grappling, you need to have both"

Its Grappling "takedowns and submissions you need to have both"

In MMA:
Pure Striking doesnt do it for you.
Pure Grappling doesnt do it for you.

In Grappling aspect of MMA.
Pure takedowns dont do it for you.
Pure Subs dont do it for you.

[SamuraiGuy]

I train under a Moreira->Roy Harris lineage. I just looked it up, and Moreira is apparently very well known for his Judo, so maybe that's where the people I train with get it from.

I just can't imagine the controls getting any nastier than what I've already experienced, so you may be right. I just assumed that the control positions I've learned and been put in were standard in BJJ. Now I feel even more fortunate to train where I do!

Just as an aside... never think it cant get worse than what you've seen. Obviously you train at a good grappling school from that lineage. The ponit I'm trying to make is I trained at a grappling school, I thought wow these guys are good. I trained at a BJJ/MMA school with amazing BJJ lineage , (I proceeded to get ass raped and still am). I went to a judo school (with great Judo lineage, I'm under 2 4th dans, under a 7th dan, who's trained over 40 olmypians). AND GOT TOSSED!

You never know whats out there... I would attribute the great control to the judo aspect of the game though, because BJJ at least in my experience, is about the submission, and advancing position, etc... Judo, they dont have to do that... its just a different mindset.

[genin]

I dosen't matter which one. It matters about the person using the style. It matters who uses their game effectively.

[DickHardman]

i started out with judo at san jose state as well, and then moved on to bjj and mt at american kickboxing academy because i wasnt satisfied with the training i was receiving at sjsu. there was some ne waza in our judo training, but it was VERY crude compared to the grappling in bjj. judo can be real powerful, but sadly many schools/dojos do not teach it properly and water it down. i learned all the pins of judo in 1 day at sjsu while at aka our instructor david will spend an entire day teaching you about a single position. bjj also has TONS of attacks, many of wich are illegal in judo.

and btw, nowdays judo and wrestling throws are incorporated into bjj at most good schools. depending on what bjj instrcutor or school you train at, you can learn takedowns as well. judo has too many limitations inmop and is too sport oriented. i like the extra freedom you have in bjj and almost endless amount of attacks you are allowed to perform on your oppoenent.

and btw, even though karo was able to throw diego multiple times, diego still fcked him up. im not sure but i believe diego was also able to neutralize a few of karos throws using his bjj skills. sanches knocked his teeth str8 outta his mouth and left him a bloody mess.

[bigboywasim]

Judo is one of of the reasons why fedor dominates. With Gi it becomes 10 times better. Without Gi it is still good enough for even MMA. There is no such thing as the best grappling style.