vote: Iceman or Rampage?

[LoneHusky]

dumbass........

Im not getting defensive dude....you talk about reading peoples posts? i guess you didnt read mine right huh....and if you youd know that i dont even like Rampage that much i just HATE liddell with a great passion...his fighting style is whats wrong with MMA and why people shit on the sport....no TECHNIQUE what so ever....if you dont like mma it dosent matter i dont want you to...in fact i wish it wasnt so mainstream because fans in america SUCK and cant judge great fights from bar fights.

where do you hail from jkd187? you shouldn't generalize so much about things you know nothing about.

[J-Luck]

I disagree. A brawler is simply someone that often chooses to get caught up in exchanges.

Also, I'd like to point out that Liddell's style may be modified and specialized, but they are still sub-par striking skills. Were it not for the power that he hits with, you would see Liddell a lot less successful in his matches. And when a man's style is predicated upon power, once someone who has better boxing skills faces him you'll see the man having problems landing. Proof of that was when we all watched wrestler Randy Couture outbox Liddell toe to toe. That was just embarrassing.

Only elite boxer can afford to have their hands down and not get knocked out. Chuck Liddell is not among them and never has been. There are professional boxers who are infinitely more skilled at punching than Liddell is, and even they cannot afford to keep their hands down.

I know you must like Liddell, but he isn't the high skilled striker you'd like him to be. Yet he is one of the best punchers in MMA. Go figure.



When did I call Americans trashy and unintelligent? Liking brawls and exchanges makes people trashy and unintelligent? I don't know how you came up with that spin job, but that isn't what I wrote.

Try again.

Not really embarassing... Randy has gotten to be a better and better boxer. To say his striking is bad is reckless. And it's gotten far better even since his first fight with Liddell.

[J-Luck]

actually i just remembered it was Kevin Randleman, he was the ufc champ at one point.

Carlos Newton is CANADIAN. And he's mixed race.

With Smith, that makes 4 black champs. Mixed race? So now they have to be FULLY black??? lol.

I hadnt realised you said american either though that still leaves three black champs

[Uke]

by that definition, every pro boxer is brawler as well.

No they're not. Most of the most skilled boxers don't brawl unless they're trying to put on a show for the fans. And even then when its better skilled fighters they do it for a short burst and then go back to business as usual.

subpar compared to who?

Subpar compared to the high level hand skills exhibited by so-called professional fighters.

hitting with power is a skill in itself, one that is taught even in boxing. didnt randy get beat by chuck twice??

Some people are blessed with power. Not everyone develops it. And no matter if Randy lost a dozen times, it doesn't erase the fact that Chuck got outboxed by a wrestler. It wasn't a case of a lucky shot. Randy outboxed Chuck thoroughly for quite a while. Liddell didn't outwrestle Couture. He outstruck him which is what was expected.

i disagree, chuck had his hands down for many fights and beat many other skilled fighters with his own style like that.

That doesn't reflect how well a striker Chuck is. It reflects how poorly his competition can take advantage of an opportunity.

again, who are you comparing his striking to? pro boxers? cause thats a completely different sport with different rules. its like saying boxers have subpar grappling skills if you put them jiu jitsu tournaments.

You must not understand that even with different rules a punch is still a punch. I'm not calling Liddell feather fisted. I'm saying that Liddell cannot put his punches together well enough to even consider comparing him to pro boxing hand skills. You and some other need to express the fact that MMA and boxing are two different sports in an attempt to justify the sloppy brawling tactics of MMA fighters. When they start off, they are boxing, my man. The hands are usually high, and they start working off the jab. That's boxing whether you know it or not. Let's not sit here and pretend that MMA has invented some new punching style. Boxers box. Kickboxer's box. MMA fighters do their best to box. The difference is in what tools are involved. Boxers don't do jujitsu. MMA fighters do box. That's not an opinion. Its a fact.

Kickboxers have much better boxing skills than MMA fighters. They put not only punches but kicks together into beautiful combinations. K-1 fighters transition between kicking and punching like pros. You've never seen an MMA fighter throw a combination like Ernesto Hoost. NEVER. They're just not that skilled.

btw, why do you always try to compare boxing to mma? they arent the same thing bro.

I know they're not the same thing, but like I described above, MMA fighters have boxing coaches teaching them hand skills. Just because you'd like them to receive more recognition for their efforts doesn't mean that they have even mediocre level hand skills. If you read what has been written on this topic before I ever posted you'd see that others feel that way too now. Why do you think Nogueira has teamed up with the Cuban national team? And his improvement is obvious. Its no coincidence.

Hand skills from best to worst:
Boxing = Elite
Kickboxing/K-1 = Mediocre
MMA/Toughman = Poor

[Uke]

Not really embarassing... Randy has gotten to be a better and better boxer. To say his striking is bad is reckless. And it's gotten far better even since his first fight with Liddell.

If you read what I wrote you'd have a better understanding.

Randy is a better than average striker as we saw him pick apart Liddell in that match. It was mostly his jab that was landing with a high percentage. Randy admitted that he hadn't even been working with his boxing team a year before he had embarrassed Liddell in the fashion that he did. At least not with strict dedication like he did in the months before the fight.

So what I've basically said is that a wrestler like Randy Couture was able to put on a boxing clinic against one of MMA's most feared strikers after only working with a boxing team for less than 1 year. He trained the basics, like the jab and lateral footwork, and it worked beautifully. He had Liddell bewildered.

I can't take a thing away from Randy behind that win, but I can say that it sure did define the level of the punching skills found in MMA. That's why MMA events have had to outsource in the past years to make superstars like Fedor, CroCop, Nogueira and Mark Hunt.

[LoneHusky]

what if Ernesto Hoost took up mma? it's not inconceivable that a boxer/kickboxer would take up mma/jits.

[Uke]

With Smith, that makes 4 black champs. Mixed race? So now they have to be FULLY black??? lol.

I hadnt realised you said american either though that still leaves three black champs

Carlos Newton is Black. He's not American though. I don't buy into all that "mixed" nonsense. If he walked down the street and someone had to give a description of him, they'd say a black male.

He's just as Black as Halle Berry, Derek Jeter, Bob Marley, Alicia Keys, etc. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who was FULLY Black in the Americas.

[Uke]

what if Ernesto Hoost took up mma? it's not inconceivable that a boxer/kickboxer would take up mma/jits.

Ernesto Hoost wouldn't have to take up MMA. He would just have to work on BJJ as its the only part of MMA that he isn't proficient at.

MMA = poor boxing skills, poor thaiboxing/kickboxing skills and mediocre bjj/submission wrestling. That's its. The ground is the only place that Hoost would have to focus on learning. He's already excellent at striking.

He's old now though, and a win over him now wouldn't be as meaningful as it would have been 5 or 10 years ago. Same as a win over Tyson now wouldn't mean squat. 10 years ago a win over Tyson wouldn't even be that big of a deal. Now, in 1989 it would have meant a WHOLE LOT. After Cus died, so did Tyson's will to be the best.

And with the money being what it is, you won't find any champions or contenders leaving boxing to fight in MMA until they've gotten to a point where they don't think they can do anything more in boxing. So look forward to a lot of retired boxers/kickboxers to participate. Maybe.

[DickHardman]

boxing isnt the only way to win a mma match, so why do you expect these people to be the best boxers? you expect mma fighters to be the cream of the crop of a sport they dont even compete in. what is your point? we already know that a guy who spends 100% of his time practicing boxing is going to be better at boxing than a guy who spends 25%, 50%, even 75% of his time learning boxing. whats your point?

if you like boxing better uke, then watch boxing.

if you hate americans then come out and say it, no need to slip it into posts here n there and try to duck around it when you obviously feel that way.

while you are at it, go ahead and come clean about how watching too much mma has made you insecure about your own training. i mean, this is real reason behind all these posts right??

[J-Luck]

If you read what I wrote you'd have a better understanding.

Randy is a better than average striker as we saw him pick apart Liddell in that match. It was mostly his jab that was landing with a high percentage. Randy admitted that he hadn't even been working with his boxing team a year before he had embarrassed Liddell in the fashion that he did. At least not with strict dedication like he did in the months before the fight.

So what I've basically said is that a wrestler like Randy Couture was able to put on a boxing clinic against one of MMA's most feared strikers after only working with a boxing team for less than 1 year. He trained the basics, like the jab and lateral footwork, and it worked beautifully. He had Liddell bewildered.

I can't take a thing away from Randy behind that win, but I can say that it sure did define the level of the punching skills found in MMA. That's why MMA events have had to outsource in the past years to make superstars like Fedor, CroCop, Nogueira and Mark Hunt.

A. I obviously read what you wrote, and had a fitting response. Don't attempt to insult my intelligence, it won't work, at least YOUR attempts wont.

B. Randy Couture has been consistently working boxing for years. He has admitted that also. With regards to consistency... he has certainly been more consistent as of late, than before, no doubt. But make no mistake, when he fought Chuck, calling him a "wrestler" would be a mistake. At that point he was also a good(possibly an upper level club level pro)boxer, a kickboxer of sorts, certainly a wrestler, and a more than decent jiu-jitsu practicioner.

C. My point had complete relevance, and for some reason, you took the challenge personally instead of refuting it. It was correct, so you'll be hardpressed to refute it with any potency lol, but I'm sure you can do a better job than that. Instead of taking jabs, saying that I should read what you wrote, maybe you should take what I wrote in context and understand there are those who know more than you do.

D. I didn't mean any of that offensively, so please don't take it that way.

E. MMA is all about outsourcing. Is this not the original concept?

[J-Luck]

Carlos Newton is Black. He's not American though. I don't buy into all that "mixed" nonsense. If he walked down the street and someone had to give a description of him, they'd say a black male.

He's just as Black as Halle Berry, Derek Jeter, Bob Marley, Alicia Keys, etc. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who was FULLY Black in the Americas.

Oh dude, You got me all wrong. I was being sarcastic. I was actually cracking on Triangle for calling him mixed. You seem to be with me 100%.

Maybe you just misunderstood what I was saying?

[Hardball]

To know is not enough, you must apply. "Bruce Lee"

[J-Luck]

Ernesto Hoost wouldn't have to take up MMA. He would just have to work on BJJ as its the only part of MMA that he isn't proficient at.

MMA = poor boxing skills, poor thaiboxing/kickboxing skills and mediocre bjj/submission wrestling. That's its. The ground is the only place that Hoost would have to focus on learning. He's already excellent at striking.

He's old now though, and a win over him now wouldn't be as meaningful as it would have been 5 or 10 years ago. Same as a win over Tyson now wouldn't mean squat. 10 years ago a win over Tyson wouldn't even be that big of a deal. Now, in 1989 it would have meant a WHOLE LOT. After Cus died, so did Tyson's will to be the best.

And with the money being what it is, you won't find any champions or contenders leaving boxing to fight in MMA until they've gotten to a point where they don't think they can do anything more in boxing. So look forward to a lot of retired boxers/kickboxers to participate. Maybe.

OOOOO I get what's stuck up your ass now(I mean this in a joking way)!!! Lol Uke, I gotta say, I misunderstood you for the longest time lol.

Sorry, you got MMA all wrong lol. You're stereotyping MMA and looking at it all wrong. In fact, MMA, ideally is, fantastic boxing/fantastic muaythai/fantastic jiu-jitsu/fantastic wrestling.

The problem you run into, is these people training MMA specific as opposed to art specific. I think you and I are going to agree alot more now that I understand where you're coming from.

I train wrestling, jiu-jitsu, boxing, and muay thai all at seperate schools. Alot of my fellow MMA fighters(most local, but some pro, and even fewer UFC fighters) have told me this is the wrong way to go about it, but as I see it, I'd like to learn the inside and outside of all of them, then once proficiency is there, combine them at some later point. It's funny how I beat alot of good amateur MMA guys, when their MMA specific training is supposedly superior. In my opinion(as I think yours is) the only way to be a good boxer, is to work hard, and consistent at a good boxing gym. The only way to be a good wrestler is to work with a god wrestling coach, and wrestle good wrestlers, ect. ect.

You(and I) feel that alot of these "MMA gyms" just ball crappy, half ass, half learned arts together, and try to call them good fighting. And in that sense, you are, indeed correct about MMA skills. But ideally(and most of the champs) are masters at what they do. Look at Randy, if we were to rate skills 1-10(10 being the greatest), he is a 9 wrestler, a 8-9 jiu-jitsu practitioner, a 7 boxer, and and maybe a 5 kickboxer.

Now look at say, Spencer fisher, an "MMA specific" trained guy. lol nothing above a 4. Or even Rich Franklin! He's their pride and joy. He's got nothing above a 6 in my opinion.

[Uke]

See J-Luck??? I told you that if you just re-read what I wrote you'd see what I was saying!!!

First, I wasn't arguing with you over the "mixed" comment. I was actually adamantly agreeing with you.

Second, Randy Couture is not a 7 in boxing. He would get beaten up by most amateurs. I'd go as far as to say that he isn't even at Golden Gloves level. Boxing is a science. Randy has used some of the basics to win, but I must stress that against real boxing talent he'd fall flat. The same goes for all MMA.

Next, I like the idea of what you are doing by training at separate schools. You avoid being stuck in some other guy's methodology that may not work well for you because you're exposed to more. By going to a thaibox gym, you'll hone and perfect you strikes much better than you would in a crash course found in a MMA gym. Same for jujitsu. Same for boxing. That's because MMA is one big crash course, but it is exciting because of the brawling and the knockouts that follow the brawling.

I've been saying for years that MMA is a toughman contest with submission wrestling. Apparently you feel the same way as you think that most of the schools are a crappy mess. We agree there. But the way you rate Randy ...we don't agree there.

Randy as a wrestler is a 10. As a boxer he's a 3 or 4. As a kickboxer he's a 2 or 3. As a jujitsu practitioner he's a 5, as there is much more to jujitsu than you'll EVER see in MMA. By using his wrestling skills with some jujitsu finishes, he compensates, but that doesn't make him a great or even proficient JJ practitioner. The majority of MMA fighter don't even rank as highly as Couture.

I've also been saying for years here that the best competitors in MMA events aren't MMA fighters. Crocop, Fedor, Nogueira, and most of the best are traditional martial artists. They specialize in a range and use it to compensate in other areas, while adding other ranges to be competitive.

The reason that I bring this up is because MMA creates its own fighters nowadays(or at least since they abandoned the old format of style vs style) by having the veterans teach young guys those same poor boxing and kickboxing skills, and throw in some BJJ/submission wrestling to round it all out. Yet, the best of the best are always the guys who have learned how to master one style/method and work on it for years. Later on, they add on things to be able to compete well like in the case of Nogueira adding on boxing, or Crocop adding on takedown defense and some subs.

But the best are masters of their disciplines. The rest are simply jacks of all trades, but masters of none. The stats don't lie.

Regardless of all this, Rampage won. He's the champ. I hope he goes on to avenge his losses to Wanderlei. Like him or not he's a character that brings more than just punches and kicks as far as entertainment value. He's got to be the best MMA interview to watch.

[Mephariel]

I think the biggest problem with Chuck Liddell is that he wants to specialize in striking, but he doesn't train anything but boxing. He is basically a boxer that sprawls. And his boxing skills are not untouchable by any stretch of the imagination. The point is, how can Chuck think he is the best fighter in MMA if he barely strikes with kicks and knees and have good but not great boxing skills? Cro-Cop is such a good fighter because he has the combination of different striking techniques. He is a true kickboxer. If you take away CC's kicks, he wouldn't be a top fighter. If you take away his hands, he wouldn't be a top fighter. And yet, Chuck Liddell only has hands and thinks he is on the same level as those guys? It just doesn't add up.