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**Karlinhos** · 03-10-2001, 10:04 AM

your friend's strategy sounds okay... i just have one thing to add. don't forget the low leg kicks. that is, unless you're going against a muay thai fighter (lol).

sakuraba is a prime example of how this strategy can work. i know it's one that i would utilize if in a fight.

**Mik_36** · 03-10-2001, 10:36 AM

Your right

Originally posted by Karlinhos
your friend's strategy sounds okay... i just have one thing to add. don't forget the low leg kicks. that is, unless you're going against a muay thai fighter (lol).

sakuraba is a prime example of how this strategy can work. i know it's one that i would utilize if in a fight.

Oh ya definitely your right, I guess when I said striking I meant punching and kicking, not just punching, I should have been more specific. But ya if I knew somebody was a REALLY excellent muay thai fighter I would take the fight to the ground regardless of their height anyway because it would be hard to beat them in a “striking match”, even if they were shorter than you are. No I’m just assuming that you would not know anything about your opponent, accept his height. I definitely hear you on the lower legs thing though I’ve seen that work many many times, even if you only divert the guy's attention to his lower legs (and don’t really hurt him severely) that leaves him open to a K.O punch right to the chin.

C ya

**judo guy** · 03-10-2001, 11:38 AM

Sounds like a reasonable strategy, but using it you might end up striking with a guy like Jen Pulver and grappling a guy like Royce Gracie.

Looks can be deceiving.

I think a better strategy would be to see how the guy squares off against you. Guys with striking skills will stand and move differently than guys with grappling skills. I'd look for hints in how they are facing me first.

Stating the obvious, I believe it is better to strike with the grappler and grapple with the striker. Height might give us a hint, but their stance is a much better tell.

**Karlinhos** · 03-10-2001, 12:34 PM

jg... exactly. great point. i would definitely look at stance over height. but then again... you NEVER know. myself, in a fight, i would move like a striker looking for jabs and low leg kicks. nothing major from the "striking department" since i'm NOT a striker... and then shoot in with a surprise shot. with that approach, initially, you would probably never know that i'm primarily a grappler.

fighting is a tough thing to assess. i'd say look at the stance and then be ready for ANYTHING. as JG stated, looks can be deceiving.

even before sak, i think the BEST example of the effectiveness of low leg kicks was ruas vs. remco (ufc). a beautiful example of sticking with low leg kicks and "chopping the tree down".

**Mik_36** · 03-10-2001, 12:47 PM

Your definately correct. But for me (a guy with only moderate martial arts experience) will the ability to judge (by a guy's stance and/or movement) whether my opponent is a grappler or striker only come with experience and intuition, or have you noticed any real obvious tell tale signs that can tell you if a guy is a striker or a grappler, signs that you might also share with a relative beginner like me (hint hint).

In my limited experience I think that a grappler will have a little more of hunched type stance (not completely hunched over of course, just a little more hunched over than a striker) and will be concentrating on your mid section looking for a chance to shoot, does this sound at all accurate, straighten me away if I'm way off.

But to be honest where I live maybe 0.00001% of people know any martial arts at all. So basically my real question is : do you think the "grapple or strike depending on reach" strategy I mentioned before is a good strategy with guys who you KNOW don't know any martial arts at all and/or have never wrestled.

I still definately think judging whether a guy is grappler or striker is very relavent in my area in case you have to fight that very very rare guy in our area that knows any martial arts or has wrestled. Or in case your ever in an area where most (or alot) of people know martial arts.

So again my question is : do you think my friend's "grapple or strike depending on your opponent's reach" strategy I mentioned before is a good strategy with guy's who I KNOW don't know any martial arts at all and/or have never wrestled (i.e. I've known the guys around my home town since high school and know for a FACT that they don't know any martial arts at all, and yet a few of them are very powerful and could potentially win a fight just by brute force, if taken to lightly).

Thanx again Judo Guy I really appreciate your and any one else's advice.

**judo guy** · 03-10-2001, 01:03 PM

Karlinhos,

You are right. You never do know. All anyone can do is try to put the odds in their favor. Looking for tells, in stance, attitude, body shape etc. certainly can help decide the fight in our favor.

The "false" tell of master martial artists such as yourself (faking striking going to grappling) isn't going to happen much in a street fight. If someone was going to bother with that strategy, it would just be easier to "sucker" punch the opponent. If they are in any sort of fighting stance, I think they are trying to prepare for confrontation or at a minimum intimidation. When we try to intimidate we usually attempt to represent strength, so my WAG is most guys will then get into a stance where they feel strong.

Out of curiousity, is streetfighting really a problem for any of you guys over 22? I can't imagine that I would have any reason to fight whatsoever.

I don't go places where I'm not wanted or where I think problems can surface. I don't try to get in anyone's face. I don't look for trouble. So far the strategy has worked pretty good. I've stayed out of trouble, kept my good looks and teeth (with the exception of one small bridge because I was trying to learn how to box), and lived a semi decent life. Does anyone find this difficult to do?

**judo guy** · 03-10-2001, 01:19 PM

Mik,

An experienced boxer will present less of a target to hit than a grappler. If you look at him, he will have his hands in a position to protect knockout points, he will be more "angled" than a grappler. He will have more upper body and head movement.

The experienced grappler will be facing their opponent more directly, perhaps a little lower.

guys without ma experience, who knows? Most guys look pretty clumsy when they try to fight, so I don't think it matters much if you are an experienced grappler and striker what strategy you use there. You will probably have the best of it.

For myself, even if I thought I could beat a person with striking, I would use grappling. Strictly because of lawsuits and criminal charges. I've worked too hard to throw any of my assets away over a fight anyway, so it probably doesn't matter. However, even if I was attacked I'd still use grappling because of the quirky justice system we have here.

Remember the potential for trouble after the fight remains. Sometimes, that trouble stays with you longer than the bumps and bruises you get in the fight. There are lots of guys out there who regret throwing that one punch that changed their lives.

Again, the friends strategy isn't bad, I just don't think its the best for the reasons I stated before.

**Mik_36** · 03-10-2001, 01:31 PM

Hi,

Ya, I don't want to give the impression that I want to go out and fight because frankly that kind of thing could get you shot or stabbed where I'm from.

But I have had about 6 occations where I had absolutely no choice but to fight. 2 times when someone grabbed my girlfriend, twice when someone gave an obscene comment to her, once when I got suckered while in a bar, and once when someone wanted to fight me because his friend was in a fight with my friend (I know, we have alot of geniuses in my nieghbourhood).

So no I don't have any death wish, I don't look for trouble at all, but I have this interest in NHB for the entertainment, the great exercise, and I want to learn to do it the right way, for the next time I HAVE to fight. You're right at 24 I don't really want to get into fights, but these things have been known to happen, I won't look for it, but I want to be ready if and when it comes my way.

Stay out of trouble lol, C ya

**Karlinhos** · 03-10-2001, 03:38 PM

i'm a lover, not a fighter... (lol)

i'm getting up there in age...

i've got a family (not worth the risk)...

i prefer NOT to get into fights...

i don't go to questionable places where the potential is high to get into a scuffle...

i maintain a high level of awareness (i have great street smarts) and stay away from trouble. if i was getting "looks" or weird vibes from a dude, i'd just keep my distance and tactfully keep one eye on him and his friends, and be particularily cautious if he were to start walking towards/by me, while being careful not to over react and set him off.

if the guy were to start mouthing off, i DEFINITELY wouldn't let him get within striking distance. i'd try to talk to him and talk him down. if he kept coming, i'd try my best to get in an open area (preferably outside) and depending on particulars (weapons present, too many friends, etc) i'd either leave or "put 'em up".

eh, i've been lucky and i'm working on maintaining my lucky streak.

mik - where are you from? i'm just curious where all this hi-jinx is happening. (lol) maybe i saw your town on "COPS"? (lmao) just kidding dude.

good luck to y'all!

**Newbie** · 03-10-2001, 04:25 PM

"you might end up striking with a guy like Jen Pulver"

Or Igor Vovchanchin, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson etc.

"and grappling a guy like Royce Gracie."

Or Mark Kerr, Alexander Karelin, Bruce Baumgartner etc.

That sounds like a VERY dangerous stereotype.

**Mr. Miyagi** · 03-10-2001, 04:57 PM

Good posts everyone!
If I were an equally skilled striker/grappler I would also fight based on what my opponent did. If he tried to clinch with me then I'd try to keep it standing and punching. If he tried to fight like a boxer and only strike then I'd clinch with him and try to take him to the ground. However, I don't know much about fighting standup so I guess I'd try to clinch no matter what.

**festiva** · 03-10-2001, 10:30 PM

be the best grappler you can be grappling was MEANT TO ADDRESS THE STRIKER..if hes better than you at grappling than you are probably going down anyway dont cross train at the expense of grappling grappling is the NUMBER ONE form of self defense so use it ...you should be able to take down a midget if you trained properly....but dont do a leg take down on a guy whose 5foot 6 and built like a tank do an arm drag go around him work your upper body control and control his arms and head ....he wont strike if you got a hold of him or if he does youll be able to capitalise on it... of course in a bar with his friends and your friends lumbering around for a quick knock out you might not want to go to the ground...so learn your striking too ...but i was just addressing your question...so no dont box a grappler and grapple a puncher grapple everyone and make sure youre better... tough line of thinking.. but that 's what shows up on the winners cards in just about all the fights..

**festiva** · 03-10-2001, 10:48 PM

following this line of thought if your friend was 6 foot 2 he would try to trade punches with multi time world champion..ceasar chavez who might be five six...bad bad situation.. go to your local boxing gym IF ITS A GOOD ONE i guarantee that youll find guys a foot shorter than you that will beat you post to post...unless youre a great puncher yourself..

**Patterson** · 03-11-2001, 12:07 AM

Yeah and he could wind up fighting Carlos Barreto and try to take him down too. We can find exceptions to every rule but lets try not to be stupid dicks attempting to gloat over are chosen style. Do you guys think most people you would fight in the street are trained fighters? But I think if your a good striker exchanging with a taller guy that has no striking skills shouldn't be a problem.

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