wing chun anti-grappling

[Tom Yum]

Looks like the art is evolving yet again.



I'm not convinced that the anti-grappling system is ready to go against a fighter with collegiate level free-style wrestling skills or an advanced rank judoka, but it could be useful against crude, aggressive grappling attempts or low-rank grapplers.

[jubaji]

Oh, I dunno about that. I don't think videos like that are doing wing chun any favors. I dig what you are saying about maybe being of use against joe schmo drunk on the street, but that stuff is exactly what grapplers look at as the stereotypical problem with the whole notion of 'anti-grappling.' The 'grapplers' in the scenarios on the vid were of the 'close eyes, bend at waist, and move forward with arms out-stretched' variety. Pretty much indicative of nothing. When they were within arms reach they stopped and did their part in the role-play and nothing else (I like how these kinds of vids always end with the guy 'hitting' the other fella 10-20 extra for good measure after he has flopped down on his back in 'oh, thou hast defeated me!' mode). The only times that the demos included anything that actually involved grappling, it only served to show how really unprepared these fellas would be to actually succeed in a situation that required actual grappling skills.

Props for trying to move things along, but that right there ain't gonna convert any but the already faithful.

[Tom Yum]

Oh, I dunno about that. I don't think videos like that are doing wing chun any favors. I dig what you are saying about maybe being of use against joe schmo drunk on the street, but that stuff is exactly what grapplers look at as the stereotypical problem with the whole notion of 'anti-grappling.'

The anti-grappling concept as derived from wingchun is only a few years old; it'll take more time for the system to be able to hold its own.

The longer it stays alive and keeps testing itself, the more effective it will be. The system requires failures for testing, as long as the practitioners can analyze why these failures happen and improve on them.

Take San shou. Its been in development now for a good 20 years and some of the best san shou fighters are just starting to hold their own against 'pretty-good' pro-muaythai fighters.

The 'grapplers' in the scenarios on the vid were of the 'close eyes, bend at waist, and move forward with arms out-stretched' variety. Pretty much indicative of nothing. When they were within arms reach they stopped and did their part in the role-play and nothing else (I like how these kinds of vids always end with the guy 'hitting' the other fella 10-20 extra for good measure after he has flopped down on his back in 'oh, thou hast defeated me!' mode). The only times that the demos included anything that actually involved grappling, it only served to show how really unprepared these fellas would be to actually succeed in a situation that required actual grappling skills.

Props for trying to move things along, but that right there ain't gonna convert any but the already faithful.

LOL...at the use of old English

I agree that the anti-grappling crowd is not ready for a seasoned grappler; when cross-trained with Jiujitsu, wingchun has held up in MMA as shown by Alan Orr - but cross-training wing chun with Jiujitsu isn't the anti-grappling style as marketed by the wing tsun guys.

Even muaythai, kyokushin or boxing couldn't hold up in MMA without wrestling, judo or BJJ.

That brings us back to square one:

Can anti-grappling advance on its own or will it require cross-training from other arts?

If it does require cross-training, might as well borrow from shuai jiao or qin na to keep it original otherwise it's just borrowing from BJJ/wrasslin'.

[jubaji]

otherwise it's just borrowing from BJJ/wrasslin'.

But if that would get the desired results more quickly, why not?

[Tom Yum]

But if that would get the desired results more quickly, why not?

It just depends on what there goal is.

Pragmatically speaking, a wingchunner could borrow from wrestling/bjj and get the job done...why re-invent the wheel, right?

However, it seems like they are trying to create a new, unique system.

That would require more work integrating shuai jiao/qin na, more trials, more failures, more analysis but the final product is a unique system - that works.

[DJColdfusion]

What do I think of the whole Wing tsun anti-grappling thing??? I think its horse shit and will only get its practicioner hurt against a determined grappler that is any where near a normal cognitive level (as in not tweeked out of his gourd). Not to mention that if they some how do survive then those little stomps, kicks, and punches after the attacker has been subdued would aid them in ending up in jail.

Anti-grappling , real anti-grappling, requires you to grapple. Grappling isn't always about ground-fighting . . . that's just one element of it. Grappling includes any non-striking technique within a range where you can actually lay your hands (or feet) on your opponent.

Escaping a grappler or preventing them from succeeding in their dastardly plan to cause you harm requires that you understand the basic mechanics, techniques, and progressions that grapplers utilize.

At the very least you have to know how to sprawl against a few different leg attacks. You have to know how to defend against a snap down and what to do if you get caught by one. You have to know how to control the clinch and either disengage or perform your own takedown. You have to know how to escape from positions that you WILL end up in . . . like when someone tackles you from behind or when you are trying to get out of a room and end up tripping over a chair before your attacker jumps on you. And then you need to know how to escape poor positions without opening yourself up to strikes or submissions . . . you need to know how to stand up without making yourself more vulnerable . . . sheesh, we're only getting started here.

The Wing Tsun video, and the people who made it, will prepare you to combat a grappler almost as well as an online first aid course will prepare you to perform brain surgery.

Anti-grappling (as practiced by the Wing-Tsun advocates in the video) = no better than George Dillman . . . actually, that's really not being fair to Dillman.

[Tom Yum]

lol...that's harsh, but I agree that anti-grappling will not prepare you against someone with grappling training. On the bright side, I believe its better than a wing chunner have anti-grappling and not get embarassed when someone tries an off-balance tackle on them.

[jubaji]

Somethin' is generally better than nothin,' but things get kinda complicated from there on out...

[DJColdfusion]

lol...that's harsh, [ . . . ]

Sorry, let me try to be a little bit more constructive . . .

Can anti-grappling advance on its own or will it require cross-training from other arts?

If it does require cross-training, might as well borrow from shuai jiao or qin na to keep it original otherwise it's just borrowing from BJJ/wrasslin'.

#1: No. It needs to be exposed to grappling specific arts to develop effective grappling specific counters. After viewing all of the Wing Tsun anti-grappling crap that I have seen over the web, and the few instructionals that I have viewed, I have to say that their current curriculum is ridiculously inadequate and will work against only the most unskilled and inebriated attackers.

#2 There is nothing wrong with “borrowing”. I have been trying to work with some TMA and sport Karate people in this area to develop a grappling curriculum that will fit into their current belt structure/curriculum. It doesn’t make what they do “BJJ” but it exposes their students to the basics of fundamental grappling and gives them the tools to build on that base.

#3 I have issues with Emin Boztepe (who coined the phrase “anti-grappling”) and view him as one of the Pariahs of the martial arts world. I strongly recommend that you avoid him like you would a hooker named Frank . . . unless that’s the kind of thing you are into . . . Seriously, Emin is worse at the whole self-aggrandizement spiel than George Dillman or any of Dillman’s fan boys. The only, and I do mean only, person in the martial arts universe that I view as lower than Emin is Ashida Kim . . . or whatever his name is.

So, now that I’ve made my “issues” with Boztepe clear, please re-read everything I have posted with the understanding that, while I may have 23 years experience across a wide variety of martial arts, I have some strong issues with Boztepe and how he promotes himself and his anti-grappling horse patooey. I honestly like much of what I have seen in Wing Chun and I can say without a doubt that Wing Chun is not the problem here.

[Tom Yum]

Fair enough. I see your beef with the system.

Wing chun has borrowed jiu-jitsu before as demonstrated by Orr in his MMA matches; I think the system has potential - it could use some cross training and a bit more realism.

[Rudy Franco]

If you do something like this in the street, you are going to have to explain it to the police.


Rudy Franco

[Penance]

It just depends on what there goal is.
That would require more work integrating shuai jiao/qin na, more trials, more failures, more analysis but the final product is a unique system - that works.

It's hard to agree with this. Until they have a refined, final product to show, how can anyone claim that it works? It's pretty apparent that what they're showing in the videos wouldn't work against a competent grappler.

I'm not really sure what their goal even is. Is this for street defense against an untrained attacker? Is it meant to counter a BJJ black belt? A high school wrestler?

No trained grappler attacks like they show in those videos and no one would just lay there after one kick to the knee. They'd throw a knee bar, X-guard sweep, closed guard, etc in a second. If it was as simple as kicking them in the side of the knee wouldn't guys in MMA have picked up on that like 5 or 6 years ago?

How many so-called systems are there going to be out there if all it takes is picking and choosing techniques from various other arts and calling it your own? You're getting into JKD territory, there, I think. If you get right down to it, everyone has their own "system"

I do a combo of muay thai, boxing, BJJ and wrestling, but I don't go around marketing it as some kind of new, revolutionary system. I'm honest, I say I cross train.

[jubaji]

If you do something like this in the street, you are going to have to explain it to the police.

Nah, you're gonna have to explain it to your doctor.

[J-Luck]

anti-grappling doesn't work. anti-grappling is just shitty grappling mixed with more shitty grappling, some striking, and more shitty grappling. It can evolve all these people want it to.

The day it becomes effective, is the day it becomes striking with a focus on distance maintainance, not "anti-grappling".

[DickHardman]

grappling in the context of "anti grappling" is not referring to actual grapplers, its refering to some drunk, limp guy falling on you. this stuff is great if some drunk guy next to you has passed out and has fallen on you, you could do hit him and paw at him a few times to get him off you.