why didnt the gracies ever challange bruce lee

[Red Rum]

As people have said, to go and challenge someone shows a big ego.
Although the Gracies were fairly humble and always welcomed people into their gym, it is still rude to go and fight someone for no reason. Fun, but rude

We cannot really speak for Bruce or the Gracies (only guess), but I think it was a case of Bruce being busy with private lessons, filming, teaching and receiving all sorts of different challenges.

Also Bruce was starting to explore grappling towards the end of his life and probably realised that it was stupid to fight a grappler, when his grappling skill was limited

[Jujujason]

It's amazing to me how uninformed and misinformed people are regarding the history of bjj and jkd in this country. A lot of you talk (write) as if things in the sixties always were as they are now and as if Bruce Lee and the Gracies knew of each other. The Gracies may've know about Bruce Lee, but sijo probably did NOT know of them. Outside of Brazil, they weren't widely known about.

First, let me establish my credentials. I am a purple belt in bjj and have been training in the art off and on since 9/92 (before the 1st ufc) and I'm an instructor under guro Dan and actively train at the Inosanto Academy in Marina del Rey here in LA.

According to guro Dan, sijo Bruce's grappling influences were: Hayward Nishioka (judo); Gene LeBell (judo); and Wally Jay (small circle jiu jitsu). Additionally, he was exposed to chin na in Hong Kong and many of his American students had some wrestling experience that was probably shared with him. He also collected martial art books, which included wrestling/judo/jiu jitsu/chin na books. There was only one book on bjj at that time written by Carlos Gracie in Portugese published in Brazil. I'm certain that sijo Bruce probably did not have a copy of that book, either.

Now, according to 'The Gracie Way', Rorion first vacationed in LA in 1968. He went back to Brazil and then returned permanently in 1978. By 1968, Bruce had already become a star and was probably somewhat inaccessible to the average Joe off the street. The Chinatown school was private and didn't advertise their existence, either. It probably would've been fairly hard to find and access for a young Brazilian fresh off the plane, here to check out the US for the first time and vacation.

Remember, bjj was not a huge, amazing marial arts phenomenon at that time. I've been doing and following martial arts since 1981. My magazine collection goes all the way back to the early 70's (I inherited one of my older martial art buddy's collection.) and I didn't read about Gracie Jiu Jitsu the first time until around 1986/1987 (???). This was in an article in either Karate/Kung Illustrated or Black Belt Magazine I believe. Outside of LA, most of the US and the world didn't know about bjj. I don't even think that Rorion started teaching out of his garage until the early 80's and then word of his existence started to slowly spread around the LA martial arts community.

I think the more appropriate and interesting question would be, what if sijo Bruce had met Rorion during that first visit? How different would jkd had been if bjj would've been introduced into its curriculum at a much, MUCH earlier date? What if guro Dan had met Rorion in 1978? How much different would jkd had been had that occurred?

Anyway, sorry to ramble, but a lot of you were writing without any sense of history or application of critical reasoning skills. Hope this helps or points you guys into a better direction regarding this discussion.

[Jujujason]

Oh yeah, sijo Bruce knew that grappling/ground fighting wasn't his strong-point, either. In the mid 80's, there was an article written about judo for the street in either karate illustrated or black belt. Hayward Nishioka was the featured martial artist. In it, he was recalling a workout with sijo in which the two of them were sparring and sijo Bruce was just toying with him (this was stand-up striking). During a break in the action, Nishioka sensei asked sijo Bruce what would he do if he (Nishioka) simply sat down and waited for sijo to come to him on the ground? Sijo replied that he would walk away. Hope this helps, too.

[Shoot]

c'mon

I think the whole "could ____ have beaten Bruce Lee.." question is disrespectful. Bruce Lee did so much to promote martial arts and to bring reality to martial arts. It's just wrong to even ask these questions. Just respect what Bruce Lee did and stood for and don't speculate.

[jubaji]

LOL, did you really think that would work?

[Ghost]

It's amazing to me how uninformed and misinformed people are regarding the history of bjj and jkd in this country. A lot of you talk (write) as if things in the sixties always were as they are now and as if Bruce Lee and the Gracies knew of each other. The Gracies may've know about Bruce Lee, but sijo probably did NOT know of them. Outside of Brazil, they weren't widely known about.

First, let me establish my credentials. I am a purple belt in bjj and have been training in the art off and on since 9/92 (before the 1st ufc) and I'm an instructor under guro Dan and actively train at the Inosanto Academy in Marina del Rey here in LA.

According to guro Dan, sijo Bruce's grappling influences were: Hayward Nishioka (judo); Gene LeBell (judo); and Wally Jay (small circle jiu jitsu). Additionally, he was exposed to chin na in Hong Kong and many of his American students had some wrestling experience that was probably shared with him. He also collected martial art books, which included wrestling/judo/jiu jitsu/chin na books. There was only one book on bjj at that time written by Carlos Gracie in Portugese published in Brazil. I'm certain that sijo Bruce probably did not have a copy of that book, either.

Now, according to 'The Gracie Way', Rorion first vacationed in LA in 1968. He went back to Brazil and then returned permanently in 1978. By 1968, Bruce had already become a star and was probably somewhat inaccessible to the average Joe off the street. The Chinatown school was private and didn't advertise their existence, either. It probably would've been fairly hard to find and access for a young Brazilian fresh off the plane, here to check out the US for the first time and vacation.

Remember, bjj was not a huge, amazing marial arts phenomenon at that time. I've been doing and following martial arts since 1981. My magazine collection goes all the way back to the early 70's (I inherited one of my older martial art buddy's collection.) and I didn't read about Gracie Jiu Jitsu the first time until around 1986/1987 (???). This was in an article in either Karate/Kung Illustrated or Black Belt Magazine I believe. Outside of LA, most of the US and the world didn't know about bjj. I don't even think that Rorion started teaching out of his garage until the early 80's and then word of his existence started to slowly spread around the LA martial arts community.

I think the more appropriate and interesting question would be, what if sijo Bruce had met Rorion during that first visit? How different would jkd had been if bjj would've been introduced into its curriculum at a much, MUCH earlier date? What if guro Dan had met Rorion in 1978? How much different would jkd had been had that occurred?

Anyway, sorry to ramble, but a lot of you were writing without any sense of history or application of critical reasoning skills. Hope this helps or points you guys into a better direction regarding this discussion.

great post.

[Uke]

It's amazing to me how uninformed and misinformed people are regarding the history of bjj and jkd in this country. A lot of you talk (write) as if things in the sixties always were as they are now and as if Bruce Lee and the Gracies knew of each other. The Gracies may've know about Bruce Lee, but sijo probably did NOT know of them. Outside of Brazil, they weren't widely known about.

First, let me establish my credentials. I am a purple belt in bjj and have been training in the art off and on since 9/92 (before the 1st ufc) and I'm an instructor under guro Dan and actively train at the Inosanto Academy in Marina del Rey here in LA.

According to guro Dan, sijo Bruce's grappling influences were: Hayward Nishioka (judo); Gene LeBell (judo); and Wally Jay (small circle jiu jitsu). Additionally, he was exposed to chin na in Hong Kong and many of his American students had some wrestling experience that was probably shared with him. He also collected martial art books, which included wrestling/judo/jiu jitsu/chin na books. There was only one book on bjj at that time written by Carlos Gracie in Portugese published in Brazil. I'm certain that sijo Bruce probably did not have a copy of that book, either.

Now, according to 'The Gracie Way', Rorion first vacationed in LA in 1968. He went back to Brazil and then returned permanently in 1978. By 1968, Bruce had already become a star and was probably somewhat inaccessible to the average Joe off the street. The Chinatown school was private and didn't advertise their existence, either. It probably would've been fairly hard to find and access for a young Brazilian fresh off the plane, here to check out the US for the first time and vacation.

Remember, bjj was not a huge, amazing marial arts phenomenon at that time. I've been doing and following martial arts since 1981. My magazine collection goes all the way back to the early 70's (I inherited one of my older martial art buddy's collection.) and I didn't read about Gracie Jiu Jitsu the first time until around 1986/1987 (???). This was in an article in either Karate/Kung Illustrated or Black Belt Magazine I believe. Outside of LA, most of the US and the world didn't know about bjj. I don't even think that Rorion started teaching out of his garage until the early 80's and then word of his existence started to slowly spread around the LA martial arts community.

I think the more appropriate and interesting question would be, what if sijo Bruce had met Rorion during that first visit? How different would jkd had been if bjj would've been introduced into its curriculum at a much, MUCH earlier date? What if guro Dan had met Rorion in 1978? How much different would jkd had been had that occurred?

Anyway, sorry to ramble, but a lot of you were writing without any sense of history or application of critical reasoning skills. Hope this helps or points you guys into a better direction regarding this discussion.

Nice post.

But GJJ wasn't as obscure as Jujujason makes it out to be. It was well known about in Japan as Kimura beat Helio half to death. Helio was invited to teach in Japan, but declined. Americans who were in the military were studying karate and judo, and knew of BJJ.

The real important fact here is that GJJ didn't gain enough notoriety by that point to set it apart from regular judo newaza. GJJ's top proponent had been thoroughly thrashed by Kimura. And later Helio was beaten pretty badly by Santana. The Gracie's hadn't left a huge impression on anyone outside of Brazil and Japan because they hadn't yet defined themselves.

Sure, Helio defeated Kado, but not before Kado threw him around several times like a rag doll. Under Japanese rules, Kado would have won the match. But in Brazil, the rules were different. Helio managed to choke Kado out before Kado could manage his own choke.

Here's the interesting part:

Back then, just like now, once the techniques and methods were seen and understood the judoka easily defeated Gracie. Once Kimura realized that Gracie was only formidable on the ground, he first used his tachiwaza to show his superiority on his feet, then he controlled Gracie on the ground to show that his newaza was also stronger than Gracie's.

This mirrors that same thing that happened in the 90's. At first when few had seen newaza techniques successfully executed in combat the Gracie's were unbeatable. Then, once some time went by and people had time to study the methods they began losing with more frequency. Now they can't seem to win a match.

My point is that I don't think Bruce Lee would have sought them out. By Lee's prime they(Gracies) hadn't shown the real practicality of their system like Nishioka, Lebell and Jay had.

I don't think it was a matter of obscurity as much as it was the Gracies just weren't a big deal at that point. Were it not for the UFC they still wouldn't be.

Lastly, Rolls and Rickson, the two Gracies widely regarded as the best fighters ever to come out of the Gracie family, weren't just using BJJ. Rolls had learned freestyle wrestling and sambo to make GJJ more effective. His tag along was Rickson. Once Rolls died, Rickson continued to wrestle and study sambo in order to become more complete and well rounded on the ground.

The talk is that Rickson is the best because he's one of few that DIDN'T just stick to strict GJJ techniques. He's said to be the ONLY Gracie with real wrestling ability. His knowledge of sambo locks, submissions and reversals have also served him well, but he wasn't the only one doing this. Watch early sambo and shooto matches and you'll see things done 20 years ago that are being done today. The big difference is that they allow strikes on the ground in today's MMA.

So if Lee would have seen Rolls or Rickson, he might very well have wanted to take a second look at what they were doing. Maybe for their transitioning abilities on the ground. Beautiful to watch Jean Jacques go from one sub to another to another and so forth.

[Jujujason]

Uke, from your post, I can tell that you weren't attacking me at all and that you thought my post was thought provoking (as I did yours), but I think that we may have to agree to disagree on a couple of points.

First, even though I wasn't in Japan after the fight with Kimura nor have I ever read a Japanese newspaper (much less the article/s that ran after that match), I would bet the house that the Japanese media portrayed Helio in that match as a Brazilian champion/master of JAPANESE jiu jitsu. I'm sure it wasn't refered to as Gracie jiu jitsu or Brazilian jiu jitsu (as will be explained why in the next paragraph below). Again, I'm not trying to argue for argument's sake, but I'm trying to put myself into that time period so this whole, 'why didn't Bruce Lee and the Gracies ever fight' thing can be put to rest, ya know?

Second, I was in the military for fourteen years. I've been all over the world to include navy, marine corps, army and air force bases on Okinawa, South Korea, the Philippines and the US from 1986 to 2001 and I don't ever recall seeing anyone practicing anything resembling bjj (other than judo, aikido and traditional Japanese jiu jitsu) or even talking about it until after the first UFC (11/93) and I'm certain that the practice of martial arts and martial arts clubs were much more prolific during my time in the military than they were in the 60's.

As per Rorion Gracie, the term 'Gracie jiu jitsu' wasn't even coined until five years after sijo Bruce's death. Rorion came up with the term in 1978 (see pg. 76, 'The Gracie Way') because he would mention to friends that he taught jiu jitsu and they would say that they heard of it (thinking it was all the same) and he wanted to distinguish his family's system from the existing Japanese systems. The term 'Brazilian jiu jitsu' wasn't even used widely (this means outside of Brazil) until the early 90's when Brazilian black belts not affiliated with Rorion here in the US were being frustrated by his (Rorion's) efforts to control the use of the term 'Gracie jiu jitsu' in advertising and promotions. To combat this, terms like 'Machado jiu jitsu' and 'Brazilian jiu jitsu' started popping up and being used widely.

I have followed the teachings of guro Dan for 26 years, I've never once heard him mention sijo Bruce talking about an amazing family or art from Brazil during the time that guro trained with sijo Bruce when he was alive. I think this would've been mentioned at some point given guro's giving nature and the tremendous amount of literature that has been devoted to both of these men's lives and teachings. Heck, the contents of the martial art magazines that were being published during that time period can be checked if people want to know what American martial artists were reading about in the 60's and very early 70's. Just go on ebay, click on Warner's Martial Arts (or other's), click on the month and year of any given issue and you'll know. It's as easy as that. No mention of Gracie/Machado/Brazilian jiu jitsu anywhere.

Again, it's possible that sijo Bruce did know about the Gracies, but he probably did not. In the 60's and early 70's, there wasn't a UFC every month, there wasn't a mma reality tv show (much less 'reality television'), the UFC wasn't on the cover of Sports Illustrated or ESPN Magazine (which didn't exist). It's ok to speculate, but don't talk as if things were factual that haven't been established as facts, ya know? Peace and keep the good, thought-provoking stuff flowing, J~

[Uke]

Jujujason

Thank you for the words, Jujujason. I appreciate being able to agree to disagree with a fellow man of the arts without it being uncivil.

My words may have misrepresented me. I didn't mean to imply that Bruce Lee knew about the Gracies. I meant to simply say that they hadn't done enough at the point when Lee was formulating his own methods to hear anything about them.

I agree with you about why Lee never fought the Gracies. It was a different era. And by then they weren't touting their undefeated boasts because Helio had lost to Kimura and Santana. So they weren't a deal back then.

As far as the Gracies only being seen in the UFC, they had participated years before in the Pan Am Games. And as I said, Shooto was doing everything the Gracies were doing with the exception of guardwork. Everything. They were doing leg locks and much better takedowns than the Gracies' shoot.

The term Brazilian jujitsu was coined before Gracie Jujitsu. And the term Gracie jujitsu existed when Helio was getting beat up by Santana. The difference is that it was TRADEMARKED way after, but people were using the term Gracie jujitsu before Rorion legally made it his own.

So again, my words may have misrepresented my thoughts, which could be my own fault. My post was meant to show that the Gracies were NOT a secret as Americans were training with the Gracies before the UFC, but that didn't mean that Lee knew of them.

Regardless, I enjoyed reading your post and appreciate the well thought out response.

Likewise, keep the good stuff coming, bro.

[Red Rum]

I think the whole "could ____ have beaten Bruce Lee.." question is disrespectful. Bruce Lee did so much to promote martial arts and to bring reality to martial arts. It's just wrong to even ask these questions. Just respect what Bruce Lee did and stood for and don't speculate.

Hahahaha that cracks me up!!

Bruce Lee is not a god. He has inspired people sure, but that does not exempt him from criticism or speculation.

It is a valid question and one that is not really even a criticism - people are genuinally interested in why Bruce never proved how good he was in the public domian.

I would never respond badly to someone who asked me a question like this. I couldn't even touch the Gracies in cage fighting despite my previous bare knuckle experience, and one of the reasons I have never gone to challeneg them is because I know they would destroy me in two seconds

Where is the shame in that? There is no shame in admitting that there are martial artists far superior in the world

In Brucies case, he may have had another reason for not engaging with the Gracies and this thread was trying to find that out

[Shoot]

Hahahaha that cracks me up!!

Bruce Lee is not a god. He has inspired people sure, but that does not exempt him from criticism or speculation.

It is a valid question and one that is not really even a criticism - people are genuinally interested in why Bruce never proved how good he was in the public domian.

I would never respond badly to someone who asked me a question like this. I couldn't even touch the Gracies in cage fighting despite my previous bare knuckle experience, and one of the reasons I have never gone to challeneg them is because I know they would destroy me in two seconds

Where is the shame in that? There is no shame in admitting that there are martial artists far superior in the world

In Brucies case, he may have had another reason for not engaging with the Gracies and this thread was trying to find that out

Maybe Bruce Lee was protecting the public from his lethal hands. Maybe he weighed 135 lbs and wasn't all that. Maybe he was just an actor. Maybe he did and the Gracies were so scared that they had him killed to avoid fighting him. Happy now? That accomplished so much.

[Jace]

aww, look RedRum, you kept some people from idolizing! They must be crushed...

Maybe Bruce Lee was protecting the public from his lethal hands. Maybe he weighed 135 lbs and wasn't all that. Maybe he was just an actor. Maybe he did and the Gracies were so scared that they had him killed to avoid fighting him. Happy now? That accomplished so much.

Although it is a valid point that we could sit here and speculate all day about reasons why.

PS I'm happy now : )

[Red Rum]

aww, look RedRum, you kept some people from idolizing! They must be crushed...)

Hehehe

Although it is a valid point that we could sit here and speculate all day about reasons why.

PS I'm happy now : )

I think the point of the original post was to see if anyone actually knew, given the number of experienced BJJ guys on here.
Not to speculate - although it is fun