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**Shimora** · 03-15-2001, 02:37 AM

Well he does have a valid point.
Notice how TKD fighters in the early UFC's were second only to Royce Gracie? In UFC2 TKD stylist Patrick Smith made it to the finals after defeating a pro kick boxer and a trained NINJA!!!! I think this speaks volumes for the effectiveness of TKD.

In UFC3, TKD stylist Kimo gave Royce Gracie his toughest fight, reigning punches down on him for most of the fight. Royce was so beat up after that fight he could not continue. Many, many people feel that Kimo really won that fight.

Fast forward to UFC14, TKD stylist Maurice Smith defeats unbeaten heavyweight wrestler Mark Coleman by using TKD strikes. Thus proving that TKD can defeat grappling.

Also look at other events such as Superbrawl. TKD stylist JR Palmer was kicking everyones butt for the first few shows.

So its really all a matter of perception. If you like grappling you no doubt will notice when grappling wins the fight. If you like kicking and punching you will no doubt notice more when striking wins the fight.

Go to http://www.duanebang.com If you want to see TKD used effectively against grapplers.

**macdawg** · 03-15-2001, 03:33 AM

LOL Shimora

**Robbie** · 03-15-2001, 03:36 AM

I'm not doubting that there have been strikers to walk all over grapplers.Believe it or not I'm a striker at heart.I started out as a striker in Hapkido and done some kickboxing.The point I am arguing is that without any grappling or anti-takedown training then most fights will go to the grappler if he takes the striker down.

This guy thinks grappling is just for sport,which is completely wrong IMO.It's obvious he doesn't know much about other martial arts.

**Shimora** · 03-15-2001, 03:45 AM

Well I think he is at least half correct. Grappling on the ground is for sport and not for the street. Stand up grappling and clinching is definitely the thing to do.
I trained in TKD for 3 years. I saw many challenge matches between Judoka, Karate & TKD. Overall the TKD guys had the best record followed by the Karate guys. It was like as soon as the Judo guys got hit they got scared. One Judo guy who did win admitted later that they were not used to being struck by such heavy blows.

I do agree with you that everyone needs to know anti grappling to survive. Its really not that hard for a TKD guy to pick this up in a short time. A famous TKD champion Robert Ferguson has made the tranisition first to anti grappler and now champion grappler. He recently had a fight with Rodrigo Gracie and Gracie tried in vain for 6 minutes trying to take down Fergson, he could not do it.

**Robbie** · 03-15-2001, 04:06 AM

Originally posted by Shimora
Well I think he is at least half correct. Grappling on the ground is for sport and not for the street. Stand up grappling and clinching is definitely the thing to do.
I trained in TKD for 3 years. I saw many challenge matches between Judoka, Karate & TKD. Overall the TKD guys had the best record followed by the Karate guys. It was like as soon as the Judo guys got hit they got scared. One Judo guy who did win admitted later that they were not used to being struck by such heavy blows.

I'm gonna agree with you to a certain extent about the grappler must be able to take blows or at least be able to close the distance so as not to get hit too hard.I am a firm believer in Cross training.IMO if the judo guys would have had more experience in a stand up style then IMO they could close the distance better and go for the takedown and beat the TKD and karate guys.But on the other hand I have seen some grapplers with hardly no stand up defeat strikers.

Also I agree with you about the ground is the last place you wanna go in a street fight,but sometimes it'll go there anyway so you better be ready.

**Lithp** · 03-15-2001, 10:05 AM

LOL!

Shimora, you're good!

**likuid** · 03-15-2001, 10:39 AM

Shimora,

first fo all, i believe in cross training...i am not a bjj fanatic. with that out of the way, you keep saying that grappling is not effective for the street...are you assuming that you'll never have to fight in an elevator, or between parked cars, or in any tight quarters where long range is useless? it doesn't sound very realistic...

**Americana** · 03-15-2001, 01:05 PM

TKE can make you very limber and you can learn some basic kicking ability. As far as mma competition, that's really about it.

The central fallacy of tkd is that it teaches fighting with your side directed towards your opponent. TKD does this because if you're side on to your opponent you can theoretically use the full range of tkd kicks (round house, side kick, hook kick, axe kick, etc). YOu would also have the full range of spinning kicks.

In contrast if you face front on (as a boxer would do), you're fairly limited. You basically have the front kick (which has not been effective in mma) and round house kicks to the legs (very effective, but banned in TKD).

The side on position of tkd has terrible consequences unless your opponent is willing to tkd spar with you. For example if your side kick (I've only seen Cal Worsham try to use one) is jammed and your suddenly in boxing range with you at a 90 degree angle to your opponent, you're going to get hit hard. You can also be taken down easily.

**Mr. Miyagi** · 03-15-2001, 01:15 PM

Don't bother trying to educate ignorant stupid people. I demonstrated a takedown, armbar from side control to an aikido-hwa rang do practitioner and he laughed and said that two guys would never end up in such a position in a real fight. There is no point in arguing or getting frustrated. Find solace in the fact that if the TKD guy ever does end up in a fight he'll end up on the ground clueless.

**Mako** · 03-15-2001, 02:36 PM

Very subtle, Shimora. I'm just waiting for the
"lunker"! LOL!

**Temujin** · 03-15-2001, 02:36 PM

BB TKD

I know a lot of TKD and some sub. wrestling/bjj. Against a trained pancrase type guy, the TKD person will lose. Against someone who doesn't know how to deal with hard kicks, the TKD has an advantage. Ever seen someone try to catch a really hard kick? Do it wrong at all and you can get really hurt (I've seen broken fingers, arms, knock outs (ala Coleman) and a few lesser injuries). Ever seen someone just stand there and try to take a few hard kicks? Odds are, they won't do it for long. Now if you know how to deal with hard kicks, TKD's threat is lessened. On the 'street' (where ever that is), most people can't kick very well at all. The trained striker has the advantage

Grappling: Judo has had problems in NHB because most judoka don't train against punching. Put judo and boxing/KB together and may have a great fighter. The sport BJJ places I've trained at did 95% or more of their training on the ground only. That sucked from a practical stand point and was unrealistic. Again, against the untrained person and you will have a good chance of getting the trip or takedown. Add some wrestling and judo throws and practice them a lot and you really have something. Note: you will NEVER see a BJJ guy be KOP.

Bottom line: arrogance know no bounds and the trained fighter has it over most untrained ones. Also, being one dimensional now includes only knowing ground fighting. Welcome to the revolution.

BTW, Kimo was not trained in TKD. After he got beat he admitted he lied about his 3rd dan to get into the contest.

**Bau13** · 03-15-2001, 02:47 PM

yeah....did you see ANY TKD in that fight with Royce??

No...full out brawling...thats all

**likuid** · 03-15-2001, 02:50 PM

and wasn't Maurice Smith a Muay Thai guy originally?

**Shimora** · 03-15-2001, 04:48 PM

No, like so many of todays top kickboxers, Maurice Smith started his martial arts journey by getting a good grounding in TKD. He later trained in other styles such as Muay Thai but his base is in TKD.

Bau13, the techniques that we witnessed Kimo execute were in fact techniques from the real Korean TKD. This is much more effective than the watered down McDojo version you Americans have become accustomed to.

The fact that TKD is an Olympic sport along with Boxing, Judo and Wrestling tends to indicate that it has some merit.

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