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  • Traditional Martial Artists

    While the learning curve at some TMA schools is slower than MMA, TMA are still effective. If you spend some time working on forms, that's time that could be spent on fighting or conditioning, which is another reason why it takes longer. In the long run, with enough repetition and testing under pressure, I believe that traditional martial arts can hold their own as well as any style.

    Here are some examples.

    Wingchun, Master Wong


    I've looked at a number of his clips and the man is serious about fighting. Most of his clips are demos, but done close enough to real-time speed. His base art seems to be wingchun, but he also has experience in JKD and taiji.

    Wingchun, Alan Orr


    Orr puts the stand up skills of wingchun to use in the MMA ring, but cross trains in either jiu-jitsu or wrestling for ground work.

    Hwarangdo, Chief Master Lee


    Traditional Korean martial arts have a comprehensive approach to takedowns and grappling. From my time in the Korean arts, I learned techniques spanning from aikido-like control moves to basic judo/jiujitsu.

    Taekwondo, Serkhan Yilmaz


    Fights in the K-1 circuit. Half of his wins are by KO. Fought Masato to a decision loss.

    Pukulan Cimande


    Never studied the style, but I've seen it. Alot of the low to the ground maneuvering might seem useless but its weapon work and hand skills are very impressive.
    Last edited by Tom Yum; 11-04-2007, 05:09 PM.

  • #2
    the guy in the first clip aint bad. i found this other clip of him demonstrating his wing chun skills for self defense. some of the stuff in here is pretty good. i too enjoy traditional martial arts. i think they should be blended with modern ones to get the best of both worlds.

    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO6A829K56I[/YOUTUBE]

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    • #3
      heres another good clip of that wing chun guy. lots of good stuff in here too.

      [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpSgGLvULeE[/YOUTUBE]

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      • #4
        this kid is pretty fast and pretty fluid.

        [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N4Iyl-Efx4[/YOUTUBE]

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        • #5
          I'm more impressed with the Master Wong series of Wing Chun.

          Here's some footage from a Hwarang Do seminar from Chief Master Taejhoon Lee.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Tom Yum View Post
            While the learning curve at some TMA schools is slower than MMA, TMA are still effective. If you spend some time working on forms, that's time that could be spent on fighting or conditioning, which is another reason why it takes longer. In the long run, with enough repetition and testing under pressure, I believe that traditional martial arts can hold their own as well as any style.
            Interesting thoughts Tom.

            I guess for me it comes down to what you are defining as "holding their own". If you are comparing an MMA approach with a TMA approach to fight in the ring or cage, I have to be honest and say that regardless of how long you study TMA; sports specific study such as MMA, Thai or Boxing will be superior 99.9% of the time, because of that very fact - the training is sports specific.

            If, however, you are talking about street application then yes I know a number of people from traditional martial arts who hold their own very well. What I would say though is that all of these people admit they are able to do so because they have adapted their system to fit the modern environment. My challenge there is, if you are adapting and modernising your system, does it therefore cease to become traditional martial arts?

            Food for thought.

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            • #7
              I watched a few more clips from the Master Wong series Wing Chun and he admits that he emphasizes adapting to the modern environment - from use of more flexible stances, practicing with live partners rather than overemphasizing forms etc. Its still a traditional martial art, just adapted.

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              • #8
                Master Lee has some good BJJ. I know you can argue all day long where stuff comes from but it's obvious that what he is showing here is BJJ. He looks pretty dang good though. I'd like to see him against a good BJJ guy to see how his stuff holds up.

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                • #9
                  I haven't been in the TMA world in about 10 years. It's interesting to see how they've evolved to respond to the MMA wave. These clips are a mix of good effective MMA type techniques and old school fantasy BS. It's kind of hard to pull out the good from the bad. I'd rather just stick with MMA where I know all the BS has been weeded out already.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by doubleouch View Post
                    Master Lee has some good BJJ. I know you can argue all day long where stuff comes from but it's obvious that what he is showing here is BJJ. He looks pretty dang good though. I'd like to see him against a good BJJ guy to see how his stuff holds up.
                    Good question. Not sure if Master Lee ever studied BJJ, but I'd wager that most of his finishing moves came from the Hwarang system.

                    I was also involved in Traditional Korean arts. Back in the mid 90's, we started learning finishing holds from the ground (this was before UFC 2 and Royce Gracie was largely unheard of) - I learned how to do a lapel choke, rear naked choke, armbar, chicken wing (what's called a keylock) and ankle locks. In addition, I learned other kinds of ground control techniques - sadly I've forgotten most of them.

                    By and large, these moves were practiced individually as an immediate follow-up to a successfull throw or sweep and without actual rolling.

                    The difference from what I was learning then and BJJ as I learned later is BJJ's huge emphasis on mobility under pressure. In BJJ you assume that you don't have the advantageous position and you have to work against a resisting opponent to get it. The BJJ sort of bridged the gap between an imperfect/akward takedown where you don't have "position".

                    Nowadays, it looks like they've got MMA style rolling too which is a good thing.
                    Last edited by Tom Yum; 11-14-2007, 10:09 PM.

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                    • #11
                      There is a wealth of knowledge in TMA. It's funny but so many people practicing or teaching a TMA just don't get it.

                      I met a TKD coach/instructor/master who was really involved with the WTF. This guy was the real deal--"coach" would probably describe him best. I'm athletic and fit and he was all over me at the gym about letting him coach me to see if I could compete for him. He said two things that I'll never forget and will always respect: 1. Forms and belts are for children. 2. Kicking high is for competition but will get you killed on the street. He said they would kick low in a real fight. This guy's TKD fighters are fit, strong, and completely awesome. It just showed how he understands his art very well. Then, you'll meet somebody trying to use competition TKD techniques on the street and get completely blasted by some street brawler--it's not the TMA, it's the lack of understanding in applying it. This applies to all martial arts.

                      Another example: the "front stance" in many Karate forms. I read an intersting book by an old Owkinawin (sp?) master who said that this stance is an elaborate way of learning to fight out of a corner or from a wall. It is a way of learning to put your weight forward. The "horse stance" was for strengthening the legs and the chambered punches were for learning how to punch--they're freak'n training techniques--you don't actually fight that way. It's a matter of understanding your own art.

                      Now, granted you can cut to the chase and learn MMA, but TMA have many benefits that MMA doesn't. As long as you understand your TMA, you're good to go.

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                      • #12
                        Excellent post, shoot.

                        I agree with what you've said. I've met some traditional martial arts masters/instructors who kept their students in top shape, made them earn their belts and whom could put their stuff to work.

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                        • #13
                          Shoot, I've spent a decade in each discipline and I can say that there is nothing that TMA offered that I don't get in MMA. I'm wondering what benefits you are referring to? As for being effective MMA certainly does cut to the chase.

                          I've met a ton of TKD coaches and I haven't known one who says that high kicks are where it's at. They'd all say pretty much the same thing as the TKD coach you mentioned. Then they'd step on the mat and teach high kicks because it's part of the art. There is always an uncomfortable disconnect with TMA. They will add some real functional stuff but they are unwilling or unable to cull away all the dead wood from the pile. I think they are afraid that if they did there wouldn't be much of their art left. Probably true.

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                          • #14
                            The US Special Forces practice full contact TKD as part of improving their kicks in their hand to hand combat training. My MT instructor use to teach soldiers MT and he was impressed with the TKD techniques that were taught to the soldiers. TKD has a bad rep for some bad ways of teaching the art but it can be useful to learn in some situations.

                            I have learned some traditional martial arts like Karate and Arnis. I also have a modern martial art background of Boxing/MT/BJJ/Judo/Wrestling.

                            The weakness of TMA is in the lack of full contact sparring and physical conditioning. They also take long to learn. Their strength lies in learning the philosophy, discipline, respect of martial arts and are geared more toward self defense. They teach you moves that can disable or even kill your opponent like throat attacks etc.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bigboywasim View Post
                              The US Special Forces practice full contact TKD as part of improving their kicks in their hand to hand combat training. My MT instructor use to teach soldiers MT and he was impressed with the TKD techniques that were taught to the soldiers. TKD has a bad rep for some bad ways of teaching the art but it can be useful to learn in some situations.

                              I have learned some traditional martial arts like Karate and Arnis. I also have a modern martial art background of Boxing/MT/BJJ/Judo/Wrestling.

                              The weakness of TMA is in the lack of full contact sparring and physical conditioning. They also take long to learn. Their strength lies in learning the philosophy, discipline, respect of martial arts and are geared more toward self defense. They teach you moves that can disable or even kill your opponent like throat attacks etc.
                              Good points, Wasim. I agree with them.

                              There are some traditional arts that try to get the best of both worlds and do so with respect. An example of this, would be kyokushin karate.

                              The art is respected for its full-contact fighting ability. It also has kata: norhern kata (derived from shotokan karate) and southern kata (derived from gojuryu karate). Making it seem like it derives its fighting moves from both hard and soft styles.

                              Another example would be kenpo karate, which has a presence in full-contact karate but isn't globally recognized. Still the style has some amazing kata (that are derived from Chinese and Japanese systems) and as you have experienced, effective at infighting.

                              Good point on Taekwon do. Traditional Korean Martial arts are known more for war time fighting, than they are for contact fighting although they are known to compete in full contact. In any major taekwondo tournament, fights end by knockout.

                              The South Korean Marines demonstrated the effectiveness of Taekwondo and other Traditional Korean Martial Arts during the Vietnam war. Reports from the US Marines suggest that the Vietcong ran when faced with a ROK Marine in close quarters.



                              Last but not least, qin-na from various styles of gong-fu are pretty well respected in terms of law enforcement such as the Shanghai Police Department during WW2 or Taiwan's SWAT teams today.
                              Last edited by Tom Yum; 11-14-2007, 10:08 PM.

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