TOAS NABARD, persian art of combat

[cheech]

Just finished reading the thread. Very good stuff. One of the problems I had was that I didn't really want to teach. I got into martial arts because I liked the competition when I was wrestling, and I was much too old to try and do that here. Not to mention that there aren't any wrestling clubs in the area, so martial arts was the next best thing. The next problem was that I really didn't truly understand most peoples motivation. My own motivation was personal development, and to have some fun. I understood that some people were motivated from fear, some wanted to be "tough" guys and some were just curious, but very few were self motivated enough to realistically do self assessments and do whatever it took to get better. Most wanted to go through the motions while "training".

I tried to keep it as simple as possible, by only teaching hands initially, working on the assumption that most people would be reasonably coordinated w/ their hands. I taught no kicking at all. I'd demonstrate simple wing chun style foot work, and cut back to only teaching the Hung Gar tiger/crane form, which has pretty straight forward techniques w/ only a few simple kicks.

I was pretty excited to get one of Safakhoos students who had broken some guys jaw who had tried to rob her at an ATM. I thought I was getting someone who at least had the basics down. After an assessment, I realized that she was lucky she hadn't gotten hurt or killed. Made her work on simple elbow strikes to help her coordinate the arm and body motions, then after a few days added the hand and forearm. She did actually learn to perform a basic thrust punch w/ power but still needed to learn how to deliver power to a target. She didn't quite last a week. Some people just seemed to be satisfied to learn to "dance".

There seems to be quite a few people that are guilty of self-deception. I always tried to teach that they should realistically assess their strengths and weaknesses. One of Safakhoos students that started before me just doesn't seem to want to acknowledge where he's lacking. I finally ended up telling him that Safakhoo would always warn me to go easy on him when sparring, and that I'd always held back when sparring anyone. No one had every seen what I could really do. However I was always well aware that my kicking skills were inferior to the better kickers. Plus I knew there was more to learn than I could possibly absorb in my lifetime.

Anyway this one guy has been teaching his cousin for at least 10 years. Plus his cousin studied w/ Safakhoo. Periodically they'd stop by so the cousin could see how he was progressing. I'd do some light sparring w/ him and give him some tips. There was no improvement at all. The last time they stopped by, I must have been in a bad mood or something, because I just got fed up that we were still playing this game. I just walked into him completely open, tripped him and stopped everything he threw. Let him grab me by the throat w/ a "tiger claw", and ignored it as it was no threat. It took about 5 seconds to destroy his foundation. I didn't throw any kicks or hands at all, and no fancy footwork.

Afterwards I explained to him that what he was doing had no power and his foundation was weak. He countered by pointing out his "score" w/ the tiger claw. I then told him I'd ignored it because it wasn't a threat, and demonstrating by ridgehanding myself in the throat w/ force. Then I told him to grab me by the throat and choke me w/ his "tiger claw". Of course no effect either. I just couldn't understand how he'd gone so long w/o realizing that he wasn't really learning anything.

I think the "Training Progress" thread is very good for people that truly want to learn. For people that only think they want to learn, I don't know. I think a good teacher is one that can teach a person whether they want to learn or not. I don't fall into that category. I just don't understand peoples motivations or how to motivate them.

Sorry for making this so long winded.

[cheech]

I've been researching To'a/toas on the web. There's a lot more information available since the last time I looked. There's a lot to indicate that To'a/toas did originate from asian styles, but specifics are hazy. One site had videos of the empty hand forms, and they're almost 100% identical to what I was taught.http://www.international-kungfutoa.c...0Download.html
I think these forms were executed reasonably well, although I have issues w/ the forearm angles in some of the blocks.

It looks like a large number of schools have added or modified techniques, as did Safakhoo. To'a, IMO, is a good style to start w/, but there are some things missing. Most of the sites indicate that To'a is a persian style, but I see little evidence of that. It still appears to be a modified asian/chinese style w/ iranian/persian influences.

[cheech]

One last post, then I'll shut up. If you google Varzesh-e-Pahlavani you come up w/ some videos and an entry in Wikipedia which states "Pahlavani, is a traditional discipline of gymnastics and wrestling in Iran, which was originally an academy of physical training for military purposes.". Viewing the videos it's pretty obvious that the training is primarily to improve the ability to handle weapons and shields. This makes a lot of sense, as martial activities normally involve weapons, not empty handed combat. You don't normally invest a lot of time training men to fight empty handed when your enemy has weapons. Plus, you invest as little time as possible training the equivalent of "cannon fodder".

During the first 13 years of To'a/TOAS, Safakhoo didn't have a lot of respect for wrestling, and none of the Varzesh-e-Pahlavani exercises existed in his style. In fact, there was very little of any type of grappling technique in his style. In the transition from TOAS to T.O.A.S. NABARD he may in fact have incorporated some aspects of Varzesh-e-Pahlavani, but as of 3 or 4 years ago, I saw no evidence of it. Of course there's the possibility of "inner circle" stuff. But in the first 13 years I was a member of the inner circle. It just didn't exist then.

I want to apologize to any current students of TOAS if offense was taken. None was intended. I still think it's one of the better first styles to learn in this area, and I don't think it should matter one way or the other what the origins are. I do think that in order to be balanced, learning "internal" styles is desirable as well as grappling which will probably have to be learned from external sources.

[greg3361]

I’ll just say it the way it is.

Cheech you need to take stronger medication to relax a little.
From what I read it sounds like you were crying while you wrote your novel.
Maybe you need professional help.
.
With over 24 years experience in various martial arts,
I consider myself a student of martial art.
As a martial artist I realized that the most important thing
is attitude.

You have so much hate and animosity that is eating you alive.
You are speaking about a teacher who has accomplished great things and
Who has many followers some of whom has been with him for as long as
He has been in this country.

It happens to be that I have known Master Safakhoo for over 25 years…all the way back to when he couldn’t even speak English. I’ve taken his class; my children are taking his class and I have recommended everyone I’ve met to take his class because he is a man and a teacher with integrity.
He has students that have been with him for over 20 years… THAT speaks louder than
You can scream.

About you.

You very cowardly hide you identity yet unintentionally reveal yourself through your ignorance.
Over the years I have witnessed many times Safakhoo dismissing students with bad attitudes. I suspect that you are one of them.
If I’m not mistaken, judging by your family description you are a short, chain-smoking, Afro-American man named Henry
Who was expelled from the Academy.
If you are Henry, I remember many things about you and you probably remember me too. I am Greg.
I remember that none of the women liked you because you were creepy and that my mother had no respect for you after your wife confided in her that you were physically abusive to her and your children.
When my Father heard about it he wanted to take matters into his own hands luckily before this happened you were dismissed.

One thing I can say about you is that you obviously haven’t changed. You still give yourself a lot of unearned credit and you still carry bitterness and ignorance with you.
Your stories only convince bored and shallow people.

Master Safakhoo is a teacher. People want to learn from him. His life is an open book and he has nothing to hide.
It doesn’t matter what stories you make up about toa T.O.A.S. –Nabard-Iran-China-America…what is the point?
People are not as stupid as you apparently assume.

Master Safakhoo has more to offer than most. He has worked hard to be a man and teacher of integrity and has built a solid reputation. He has devoted his LIFE to creating a style through which mankind can grow. What have you done?

Move on Henry/Cheech. You never were anything and you never will be until you change your attitude…THAT is the first lesson of a martial artist.

[cheech]

I’ll just say it the way it is.

Cheech you need to take stronger medication to relax a little.
From what I read it sounds like you were crying while you wrote your novel.
Maybe you need professional help.
.
With over 24 years experience in various martial arts,
I consider myself a student of martial art.
As a martial artist I realized that the most important thing
is attitude.

You have so much hate and animosity that is eating you alive.
You are speaking about a teacher who has accomplished great things and
Who has many followers some of whom has been with him for as long as
He has been in this country.

It happens to be that I have known Master Safakhoo for over 25 years…all the way back to when he couldn’t even speak English. I’ve taken his class; my children are taking his class and I have recommended everyone I’ve met to take his class because he is a man and a teacher with integrity.
He has students that have been with him for over 20 years… THAT speaks louder than
You can scream.

About you.

You very cowardly hide you identity yet unintentionally reveal yourself through your ignorance.
Over the years I have witnessed many times Safakhoo dismissing students with bad attitudes. I suspect that you are one of them.
If I’m not mistaken, judging by your family description you are a short, chain-smoking, Afro-American man named Henry
Who was expelled from the Academy.
If you are Henry, I remember many things about you and you probably remember me too. I am Greg.
I remember that none of the women liked you because you were creepy and that my mother had no respect for you after your wife confided in her that you were physically abusive to her and your children.
When my Father heard about it he wanted to take matters into his own hands luckily before this happened you were dismissed.

One thing I can say about you is that you obviously haven’t changed. You still give yourself a lot of unearned credit and you still carry bitterness and ignorance with you.
Your stories only convince bored and shallow people.

Master Safakhoo is a teacher. People want to learn from him. His life is an open book and he has nothing to hide.
It doesn’t matter what stories you make up about toa T.O.A.S. –Nabard-Iran-China-America…what is the point?
People are not as stupid as you apparently assume.

Master Safakhoo has more to offer than most. He has worked hard to be a man and teacher of integrity and has built a solid reputation. He has devoted his LIFE to creating a style through which mankind can grow. What have you done?

Move on Henry/Cheech. You never were anything and you never will be until you change your attitude…THAT is the first lesson of a martial artist.

Yes, I'm Henry, and no I'm not hiding my identity at all. I'm not sure why you think I was showing Safakhoo disrespect. The point of the thread, if I'm not mistaken, was if TOAS NABARD was a Persian martial art..Which I was addressing, nothing more. If you would like to discuss whatever issues you have w/ me, that's fine, but it's probably better suited to PMs.

No, I was never kicked out. If you'd like to discuss the specifics of why I left, then I will. However, in respect to Safakhoo, you might want to use a PM. As far as your assertion that I was physically abusive to my family, you're talking out of your ass.

Believe it or not, I always recommend Safakhoos school, and have never disrespected him.

Your assertion that the women thought I was creepy, may or may not be true. As far as I know I never did anything to get that reputation. During the time I was there, there weren't many females at all, and I always treated everyone the same. In fact Safakhoo normally had me help the females because he knew I would be patient w/ them and there was no chance I'd hurt them. AFAIK the females I was around, Tia, Tia's mother, Sherry, Scotts girlfriend (I don't remember her name), were the only females that were there for any length of time, always interacted in a friendly, polite, and entirely appropriate manner. In fact Scotts girlfriend asked me to work w/ her sparring after hours. When I told my wife about it, and she objected to me being alone w/ a young women, I stopped the sessions.

As far as unearned credit, I don't have a clue what you're talking about. I'd always presented myself as an intermediate student.

Additionally, I periodically check in w/ Safakhoo, and we still seem to have a friendly relationship AFAIK.

Sorry, the name Greg rings no bells. But yes, I'm a short thin person of african american/japanese descent, but no longer chain smoking.

If you'd like to discuss your issues in a public forum, I'm up for that too. I don't have anything to hide.

[Ghost]

i hate martial artists, what a bunch of cocks

[cheech]

Thanks for the defense Mike. However, I don't have a problem w/ Greg airing his grievances in a public forum or in PMs. Frankly, I'd like to know what it is that I've done, that he has problems w/. I'm just a bit surprised. I wasn't aware that anyone from that school had issues w/ anything I've said or done. Real or imagined I'd really like to know.

i hate martial artists, what a bunch of cocks

I assume you're joking ghost, but if not, I've usually found martial artists to generally be nice guys. Some exceptions of course.

[Ghost]

Thanks for the defense Mike. However, I don't have a problem w/ Greg airing his grievances in a public forum or in PMs. Frankly, I'd like to know what it is that I've done, that he has problems w/. I'm just a bit surprised. I wasn't aware that anyone from that school had issues w/ anything I've said or done. Real or imagined I'd really like to know.


I assume you're joking ghost, but if not, I've usually found martial artists to generally be nice guys. Some exceptions of course.

sort of and sort of not. Met many nice guys but 90% id say are just downright weird and difficult people. I think martial arts attracts these types. Know-it-alls and idiots alike.

[Ghost]

Ghost, I have to say I agree. While I get along with most martial artists, the vast majority tend to be people I don't like to hang out with. Too wrapped up in either mysticism or cultural confusion most times. There are exceptions, to be sure, but the whole idea of calling someone "Master" thus and such makes me itchy.

I like the gym mentality a little more, but that's because I can generally handle myself well (my Dad said if I kept it up I'd go blind). For new people, gyms are intimidating places because there's such and air of alpha male syndrome. Too many folks at gyms feel that new people have to prove themselves first. Chases off a lot of good ones, and corrupts many of the ones who stay.

It's all got its flaws, I guess. If I didn't love the arts and practice itself, I'd have probably moved on a long time ago.

yeah that pretty much sums it up id say.

[cheech]

I want to apologize to the longtimers for the crap that spilled onto your forum. Apparently some of the TOAS students think I was taking potshots at Safakhoo, which I wasn't doing, even if they perceived it as such. Gregs post really kind of shook me up a bit. I've never had anyone go at me like that before, unless it was for racial reasons, which I don't think was the case here.

Because of the african american/japanese thing, and the fact that my formative years were in the '50s and '60s, I have a tendency to avoid people altogether I have the utmost respect for Safakhoo. Even if I didn't agree 100% w/ everything he said or did, I could always accept his reasons. One of the things that attracted me to his school in the first place was the fact that it didn't have the cult like feel some of the other schools had. He would regularly ask my opinion on various topics, and he's eaten at my house on a handful of occasions, and I felt the respect was mutual.

In case anyone is interested in the details of why I left, the story is as follows.

He'd gotten fed up w/ the performance of his "advanced" students, and wanted to start over. We were all given the option of spending more time there or leaving. I was never interested in treating it as more than a hobby and wasn't really learning anything new in the last few years anyhow, and was really only still there out of a sense of obligation, so I opted to leave. I have to respect the man for coming to the realization that the students weren't on track, and that a different approach needed to be taken. There was never any animosity on my part, as I saw the ultimatum as a way to get out w/o just abandoning him. Plus I was interested in learning something different.

BTW my wife says "Gregs mom is a liar, and that he is a coward, and that if he wants to spread inflammatory remarks about someone he needs to be a man about it and use his own name." Really, her words not mine.

Sorry for the last part, but I've long ago learned to do what I'm told.

[still-learning]

Gee whiz.
*sssiiiiggghhhhh......*

[Tom Yum]

Howdy, John!

Hope no one was offended by the beautiful Persian woman performing the dance. Looks like a good workout for someone.

I've pulled up several maps of the Persian Empire from good old wiki to see its expansion during different time periods.

Here it is during 6th century AD (The Sassanid period)
Image:Persia 600ad.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The farthest eastward it approaches is the land of Kashmir.

Around that same time 7th Century AD to 9th Century AD, China's borders extended to the approximate tip of the Persian Empire just short of Kashmir.

Image:Tang Dynasty circa 700 CE.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How did Persian-Sino cultures exchange goods and ideas?

The Silk Road.

Built in the 1st century AD, but re-opened during the Tang Dynasty when cultural trade flourished between China-Persian Empire-India-Japan-Korea-SE Asia. But what of the genetic diversity of the folks living between The Persian Empire and China?

In the next couple hundred years Genghis Khan and his direct descendants conquered most of China, a large part Russia, Persia and land all the way up to Baghdad. So if anything, the descendants of central Asia are of Arab-Mongolian-Russian decent, maybe with some Chinese thrown in.

9th Century AD
Image:Asia 900ad.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Looks like the Persian empire might have expanded into the northern states of India. The closest it may have ever gotten to China might be Tibet, but this isn't confirmed.

Back to the main subject -- Toas Nabbard? I think its more the case of a guy studying gong fu and making it his own.

My humblest apologies, folks - I think my information is correct but if it isn't please feel free to critique, suppliment, correct etc. Obviously taking several pieces of information and trying to piece together what was missing.

Thanks!