Bjj Vs Wrestling (Again!)

[Jean-Jacque]

Okay, i'm getting real sick of hearing how bjj is not evolving and how wrestlers are dominating, so i'll list some valid points and anyone can respond.

1) If Bjj is not evolving, then why does every single martial artist incorporate it now? You don't think Royce would still be winning if everyone didn't learn bjj. He still had it right by saying in order to beat him, you have to know what he does.

2) I'm sorry but if wrestling is so great on its own, then why did the brazilians and japanese clean up at Abu dhabi last year? The only wrestlers who were winning (Aside from maybe Tito) were all winning by a takedown and that was it. No submissions. And as far as NHB, I don't consider a knee or a punch a part of wrestling. I don't believe they teach guard passing in wrestling either!

3) Of course 1 style is not going to win by itself anymore, but to me and a lot of other people, bjj still plays the biggest part in NHB today.

have you ever noticed that one tourney its the wrestlers losing, the next its the bjj guys? Its always back and forth. To me that just shows that everyone loses regardless of their discipline, even the Sak-man.

Thats my ranting for the day.

[Scott Harper]

ok, I'll answer

1) I don't see by your statment how BJJ is evolving. It seems like the other way around, that other styles are evolving by adding techniques that they don't already know by cross-training in BJJ. How is BJJ evolving- more stikes, throws, etc...? Yes, I agree with Royce that you have to know what he does to beat him, but if wrestlers are winning I would want to know some of what they know.

2) From what I can tell, in wrestling many joint locks are dangerous, and the referee breaks up the people. Pure wrestling doesn't have strikes, but from my point of view wrestlers are evolving by adding strikes like in the ancient Roman days when pancration (sp?) was a mix between striking and wrestling. Then if you think of NHB matches as kind of a gladiator contest, then it would make sense. Guard passing - wrestlers are evolving.

3) BJJ does play a big part, but not as big of a part as it once did. By meaning once did, I mean from the start of the Gracie challenge matches. Rorian is a great marketer for a great product.

How had BJJ evolved? Evolved in becoming more sport orientated?

[bobby_steeles]

well if you're going to say wrestling has evolved because they added striking to grappling, that is nothing new to brazillians. vale tudo been going on in brazil longer than mark coleman has been alive. and if you're going to say wreslting has evolved because wrestlers are just now starting to learn how to pass the guard(a jiu jitsu technique?!!) then by the same logic vitor and the top team are evolving bjj by learning and successfully employing the ground and pound.
no matter what the bjj win-loss record looks like from here on out, the fact remains that bjj is a great equalizer for fighting someone bigger, stronger, etc.--much more so than wrestling. that is the biggest difference i see in the two.

[Lithp]

I think you first have to establish what we're all referring to in order to continue this discussion.

You can't say that wrestling is incorporating striking because Coleman is doing it. Unless I see striking being incorporated in highschool practice, then that statement is false. There are differences between MMA/wrestling/BJJ. All three are different.

So is it sport BJJ or vale tudo. Is it olympic wrestling or wrestling with strikes?

[Jean-Jacque]

Bjj is evolving, but if you don't train it then you don't know it. There is constantly new moves and techniques coming out of brazil. I am a purple belt and consider myself to know a lot of techniques, but some of the stuff coming out now is almost unthinkable. The half guard for example used to be considered a vulnerable position, and now it is one of the most dangerous. Thats called evolution.

i don't consider striking an evolution to grappling martial art. You don't think even Royce trained standup before the UFC? Of course he did! But just because he didn't have to use it doesn't mean he didn't train it. It would have been stupid for him to trade punches back then anyways because everyone was heavier than him. My point is everyone trains stand up at one point.

And as for wrestlers passing the guard (which is a bjj technique as stated above) I do not consider using sheer power and no technique proper guard passing. Everyone can get lucky once in a while, especially when there is striking involved.

[Scott Harper]

I can see how you think BJJ is evolving. I was thinking along the lines of a different aspect of it. Are new standing joint locks, throws, strikes, knife defenses, etc... coming out?

In that case to, referring to your point on Royce, because you don't see grappling in stand-up arts a conclusion shouldn't be reached that they don't exist just as grappling arts contain striking.

About wrestlers passing the guard (a judo technique), if it works for them, fine. It seems like a lot of wrestlers are getting "lucky" now. Any new BJJ techniques to stop the ground and pound?

[Jean-Jacque]

Yeah, there are new techniques called armlocks, which happen quite often!

As for standing joint locks and knife defenses, we're talking Nhb here. No knifes in NHB. Standing locks? Why don't you just send an Aikido master in there and see how he does. Why evolve to something thats inferior and won't work anyways.

As for a lot of wrestlers must be getting lucky passing the guard, its like I said, its NHB. Its completely different when strikes are involved. Wait and see next month at Abu Dhabi. How many wrestlers will be passing the guard then!(Ps, why do you think so many wrestlers just sit in the guard and punch? Probably because they can't pass) And as for passing the guard being a judo technique, maybe the most basic passes imaginable that any blue belt could defend, but as far as technical passes its all been refined by bjj.

[sniper26]

wrestlers??

The way I see it is that if wrestlers are learning striking and how to use and ward off submissions they are no longer wrestlers, they are NHB fighters. A wrestler is someone who is in a match to score points or pin an opponent on his back, am I right? Do you do either of these in a NHB match? Mabye if you are looking for a judges decision but nobody trians to go to the scorecards every fight. I would consider guys like Coleman, Henderson, ect.. NHB fighters with a wrestling background because they are not winning matches by scoreing tech-falls and pins in UFC or Pride are they. Yes their speed and savy on the ground makes them great fighters and near impossible to take down, but when is the last time you have seen a guy tapout from a banana splits or a ref stop a fight for a pin? They are not in the high school wrestling room anymore, they are using wrestling techniques to gain control but they are not using wrestling moves to finish opponents (submissions & striking).You call them wrestlers because that is what they grew up doing and that's ok, but don't try to blow smoke up everyones tailpipe that wrestling won fights for them.

[Scott Harper]

I see your point Jean-Jacque

BJJ is a refined portion of Judo, so in effect Brazilian Judo could be another way of looking at it.

about standing joint locks and knife defenses - I was talking about BJJ or BJ, not NHB. Are you saying that policemen should concentrate more on BJJ, than come-alongs?

[Qkfx]

BJJ

JJ you said "As for a lot of wrestlers must be getting lucky passing the guard, its like I said, its NHB. Its completely different when strikes are involved. "
But that is the point. I love bjj but it's primary purpose is for real situations with striking and more powerful guys. If new techniques are evolving only for sport tournies, like Abu Dhabi then what is the point? All the top guys from Ze Mario to Kerr say it over and over again, when it comes to the street or NHB the further you get from the basics the worse off you are. With developing new techniques striking should always be considered.

[Maxximus]

Style debates are a moot point...

Its really not a question of the styles evolving. It is simply a matter of the individual fighters evolving. There are plenty of well rounded fighters who have an extensive background in Bjj. The fact that guys such as Royce Gracie are not well rounded has little to do with Bjj and a lot to do with their own refusal to adapt and learn.

[Ravenman]

FYI, just wanted to point out that anchient pankration also had
plenty of submissions, especially chokes. E.g.:

[aseepish]

Originally posted by Jean-Jacque

No knifes in NHB.

Yet...

-Tony

[shinbushi]

bujinkan

Originally posted by Scott Harper
ok, I'll answer

... the ancient Roman days when pancration (sp?) was a mix between striking and wrestling.

Actually pancration is Greek
The Olympics were held for the god Zeus. There were six sports: Running, discus-casting, javalin casting, pancration, dispatch-race and jumping.

[macdawg]

BJJ alone will only get you so far in MMA, a purple belt that is cross trained should beat a black belt that only does BJJ. Example of that...Silva would destroy the shit out of Rickson. Morever, I agree the further you get away from basics the less likelihood of it working, therefore I don't see the half guard revolution thats going on in Brazil taking the MMA world by storm in a hundred years. Trying fancy subs from the bottom of a half guard will get your teeth turned upside down in MMA.