Is BJJ enough for the streets?

[Ryu (non-working password]

Well.... Multiple opponents are not a realistic self-defense situation. I can see getting away from two...but four or five? I hold out that no martial art can do this. Sorry.

The most realistic thing you can do if you have 3 or 4 guys coming for you to beat you up is to pull a knife, stab, angel away, and run.

If they get the knife away from you you're dead....
if you try to fight them with just your hands you're dead anyway LOL

Unless it's not really a "street" thing.

Ryu

[Twisted up]

"Street"

So many people have these conceptions as to what the "street" scenario exactly is.

Consider this:

If you are a law abiding citizen, keep your nose clean and avoid places where you KNOW trouble lies, keep your EGO in check AND YOU'RE STILL ATTACKED--it'll be by a predator. He won't come empty handed, and he likely will bring "friends". In this situation, NO art is going to even the odds! You can't stop bullets!

What many people think of when contemplating a "street fight" is a situation where you're being screwed with by someone bigger who "thinks he can take you" and wants to make himself look like a bigshot in front of his friends.

This is a very common scenario! In this situation, ANY training ("ALIVE" training) will be enough, and that includes Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

Of course the confidence people get from training is often enough to make them "hard targets" This is often picked up by Mr Badguy, who usually opts to leave said hard target alone!

This results in NO FIGHT! This is the REAL value of martial training.

IF it's self-defense people are looking for, there are MUCH easier ways of injuring someone than having to bust your ass training your body for a long time!! Carry a knife, a gun, pepper spray, learn to run and above all--learn to spot trouble BEFORE it appears in your face!

For a "fight" though (and understand the definition of what I mean by "fight"), Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is plenty! Of course, it doesn't hurt to be cross-trained!


Good training!
John W. Kogas

[macdawg]

BJJ is not near enough for the street don't fool yourself. First of all most BJJ guys don't have the takedowns to takedown a lot of attackers when full force punches are involved. Secondly, hunting for submissions is a bad thing to do when someone is trying to kill you, if you are smart and in a streetfight on the ground I'd pick a BJJ white belt over about any brawler w/o the knowledge.

[Ryu (non-working password]

I agree that submission hunting is a bad thing in that kind of situation unless you can really get away with it.
I think ground and pound is more street geared, and you can injure to degree. I do like chokes, but I wouldn't fish for a straight armbar or anything.

Plus, the takedown issue is something to think about. Imagine if you did get into a fight with Joe Smoe, and couldn't take him down...if all you knew was BJJ then..

Ryu

[Water Dragon]

I remember reading a post on this board (maybe a year ago) that BJJ isn't really a groundfighting art. The groundfighting is taught first because that is where the untrained student will be. At higher levels, BJJ focuses more on the throws and strikes. I can't remember who posted it, but supposedly the info came from one of the Gracies. I think it may have been Helio or Rickson.

Based on that premise, yes BJJ is enough for the streets.

[kuntaobjj]

BJJ is a very good form of Self-Defense for the street.
As has been said before no Art is a complete form of defense for the street.
Most people cant stop a grappler from taking them to the ground (look @ all the UFC or Pride Tapes). Though the certanty of a fight going to the ground, that these tapes display, is a little misleading (in many of the fights the contestants are just grapplers and hitting the floor is the strategy of both men).
The truth still is that most people cant defend the takedown very well. If you dont start fights this doesn't help you in a offensive manner but training in BJJ will certainly help you in a defensive manner.
NOTE:
Some members have said that if you have been in more than one street fight that it is you or that its your fault. This is probably true........ This IS NOT necessarily a bad thing!
It NOT a bad thing to defend someone innocent, who is a less capable fighter than you are!

[Americana]

Some bjj is almost too sophisticated for the streets. There's a review of the Sperry VT 1 tapes on the UG where someone talks about using Sperry's system in a street fight. Do you really want that level of refinement for a street fight.

For example, Sperry stresses clinching with your head up so you don't get caught in a guillitine choke. Outside the small world of mma/bjj, how many people have even heard of the guillitine, let alone could apply it in a stress situation. (Certainly, the wrestlers didn't know about it in the early days as they kept getting caught in the choke: Meyers, Severn, Tito).

I think the Sperry system could work in a street fight. It's just that you might be making things much more complicated than they really are.

[Water Dragon]

If you shoot with your head up, you open yourself up to a real sweet head lock hip throw. If you get the clinch it actually makes the throw easier to pull off.

Of course, the chances of running across a Shuai Chiao guy are extremely slim.

[macdawg]

Interesting post Water Dragon, maybe that is what BJJ is evolving to.

[Water Dragon]

Maybe. I think it's more of a "someone's gonna figure it out sooner or later" type deal. It just happened to be the Shuai Jiao guys. Of course, I don't know how old that throw is.

[Twisted up]

again......

Most people on the "street" (I hate using that term) aren't training FULL TIME. I'd take a guy training full time in Brazilian jiu-jitsu over the "average joe" any day of the week!

As for BJJ not having the best takedowns, I agree--against wrestlers!! Remember how Royce did against the "martial artists" of the early UFC's? He got those guys down without a problem! Those guys are likely better than average, untrained guys!

It's only a small percentage of the over all population that actually trains guys, you have to remember that. Consider also that most of the people who are training, are into Tae Kwon Do! That has to be 80% of the presently training "martial artists"!!

Think about it.

I'm not saying you have to take your opponents down every time you fight but, understand what the difference between FIGHTING and COMBAT is! BJJ works with fights--nothing based on empty hand works within the realm of COMBAT because that is generally an armed confrontation!

But hey......what the hell do I know


John

[Americana]

Sperry's head up clinch is an nhb move (no gi, striking allowed). San Chou, I believe, is some kind of a gi, no strikes and no ground fighting. I'm not sure how applicable that counter is to nhb. I haven't seen it.

The clinch has been countered by Greco Roman techniques.

[Bushido]

Good point Ryu!

[Bushido]

kuntaobjj: to me, strikers in nhb are easily takedown because many of them are use to defend against strikes and only strikes. Karate vs karate, kickboxing vs kickboxing. If a striker is train to defend against takesdowns (grapplers), it becomes different, they may avoid the ground with strikes. Another thing, I think, that is not if favor of strikers is the use of gloves. That way, the are kind of limited, they are definately sure to do less damage! It's a fact. I'M not against grapplers, far from that (i'm both striker and grappler), but I think there are factors playing against them. A good striker (not only a prehistoric hitting machine wich we usually see), technical and intelligent, trained to counter takedowns (with strikes), and no gloves is pretty hard to take down. Of course it all depend on the level of both sides...

[Water Dragon]

Americana,
Shuai Chiao is basically no gi Judo which allows striking. There is no ground work. (Oh Well, that's why they have BJJ)

San Shou is like Thai Boxing with throws.

Interesting side note: The reason there is no good groundfighting in CMA is because the Chinese consider it humiliating to roll on the ground. But the old men LOVE BJJ!!