Bruce Lee vs Grapplers of today, such as Ken Shamrock

[Ronson]

WTF is with people that only deal with certainties, but then go into the what if's of a situation?

wow, you're a moron actually. Let's take the instance of a bite. You arm bar someone and they decide to bite the tendon, which you've conveniatly placed over their mouth, in the pit of your leg (out of the two that run along either side of your leg and on other side of knee) I guarantee you will not be able to finish off your arm bar

Wow, you must have teeth like that dude from James Bond or be a vampire! You sir are the deadly shit and I hope I never run into you in a dark alley. You "guarantee" you can't be finished with an armbar? Go into your local legit BJJ school, make that challenge, and surely you'll make fools outta all of them!

bjj practictioners buy into the hype and think their style is going to be helpful in the street because I doubt you'd really get a chance to use it to the best of it's abilities in urban warfare.

Urban warfare? A little dramatic aren't we? A fight is a fight. If it's really urban warfare, then we're talking weaponry and that's a completely different topic.

if a grappler in a street fight has a nongrappler on the ground - who here would really say that the non grappler has no chance (he could find an f'ing brick and lay the bjj guy out).

Putting up dollars to donuts, the grappler takes out the non-grappler 9/10 times. It's about percentages. It's useless arguing over certainties. Yeah a brick might be within reach or it might not. Yeah bigfoot may choose to debut and intervene on your behalf as the bite counter to the armbar doesn't work.

Maybe the comment was more harsh than I intended, but still don't buy into the hype.

I love it when people call BJJ and MMA competitions as hype because it's not the "street." It's the closest thing we have for testing hand-to-hand combat effectiveness. What better litmus test do we have that can be verified independently and accurately recorded? I'd rather go with that than what any kata, non-resistant drills, or instructor tells me. It's people that call it "hype"" are the ones brainwashed.

[georgie]

not hype

its not hype. bjj is very effective . but what im saying is use it as a last resort only . dont ever try to PURPOSELY go to the ground in a street altercation. sure you may dislocate a guys shoulder or break his arm but say hes has hiv or hep c ? he bites you . guess what , now you may have it . use bjj as a supplement only. a last resort. put the guy on the ground but dont go down with him PURPOSELY. im tellin ya ive seen this happen right before my eyes. IF a fight goes to the ground then bjj is the only way to go . but if you can take him out before it goes to the ground then do so . i worked as a bouncer for a few years and was lucky enough to see LOTS of steet altercations. you would be surprise to see how many fights end up 2 on 1 . can you choke hold 2 peeps at the same time . not likely. again i will re-iterate that bjj is highly effective but only as a last resort. stay off the ground!! BJJ IS EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE BUT ONLY AS A SUPPLEMENT AND LAST RESORT.

[Tant01]

Yeah well try it and then tell me it doesn't hurt. I also see that you didn't contest any of my points or is that because you can't. I guess this then is an appropriate response and one that you're simple mind might understand better .

(IF) You want to try that "technique" against a guy that's only a moment away from breaking your elbow, knock yourself out...We'll see who ends up screaming like a baby...(who needs surgery and painful rehabilitation) Aside from that there are variations to that particular (JUDO) armlock (Ude Hishigi Juji Gatame) that prevent you from biting as well as counters to it, like kicking your teeth out or bouncing your head on the deck or just smashing your neck...
You wanna bite my WHAT? LOL

[bdipab]

But you have to concede that biting is an option and you seem to totally ignore the other options I listed or the fact that no one needs specific bjj training to strike on the ground. Instead you picked biting and I am giving you one scenario where a bite could free someone (you don't need to train to bite, it is a natural reaction for some people - Mike Tyson ). But let's not get bogged down in "if"; you feel bjj can help you in every single fight you come across then enjoy your little fairy tale land. I for one would say it's highly overrated, would rather practice mainly a stand up/striking art and incorporate bits of grappling (I simply can't believe that anyone could realistically say bjj is either complete as a martial art or as necessary as the gracies, whose family fortune rests on such misnomers, would like people to believe).

Gee, why don't people have a so-called clue to it's practical applications - don't see you rushing out to contradict me point by point (debating the issue) instead you want to come off as some grand wizard (okkkay) of the white gi who simply has to say I don't have any experience with bjj.

As far as someone saying I'm a dojo darling - go do a search for fight vids (common street encounters) these are what I've been in and what I see more often then a UFC fight - yes, they go down to the ground sometimes(but it's stupid to try to pin down how often they do - you'd be a moron to take someone to the ground as you're first and only option - my main contention with bjj and the danger of it being overhyped) but what idiot would ever try to put a random statistic to it (the gracies and bjj practictioners who hope to make a career out of it). Yes real world scenarios would involve weapons - so maybe I'm not in a good position to get a eye gouge, or to roll into a better position, well what's to stop someone from pulling a knife/pen and stabbing you repeatedly. One scenario that is taken out of everyday ma practice is the effects of adrenaline - so consider that. Also if you see that new UFC series on Spike TV - note how some guys say that their opponent is a good striker and they're only chance is to take it to the ground (while that's true that's a dangerous mentality that seems to be indoctrinated into you bjj guys). I'm not in love with any art completely - they all have their weaknesses, but what I hate most of all is how people start to believe the hype coming from teachers and others who are benefiting financially from misinformation. If anybody is a dojo darling it's some of you bjj guys who seem to think that in any setting/situation bjj is all that's needed - this is where the hype comes in and that is where the impracticality lies. (Read my original post - I specifically said that my statement doesn't mean that there isn't anything to learn from bjj, but lodge the gracie tool out of your mouth long enough to see the limitations inherent in bjj.

[Tant01]

But you have to concede that biting is an option and you seem to totally ignore the other options I listed or the fact that no one needs specific bjj training to strike on the ground. .....
.... but lodge the gracie tool out of your mouth long enough to see the limitations inherent in bjj.

And you expect a courtious and detailed response to this dribble?

Show me a hint of something like respect and we'll talk. Untill then you're a stupid assed punk that thinks Ju jutsu is something done on your back...


Biting is the last resort of the desperate and untrained...And a good way to to make a bad situation WORSE!

"wow, you're a moron actually". Uh-huh...


"Most of the time what finishes a fight is striking you idiot".

Wait, I thought I was a "moron"

"God some of you bjj guys are so brainwashed it's not even funny."

I'm NOT a "bjj guy"

"I have investigated it thoroughly..."


Then you should know the only difference between submission and destruction is INTENT.

[Ronson]

bdipab,

I'm not gonna debate you for every stupid, ignorant-ass point you've made.It would just take too long, but I'll hit you up on a few.

I say it's a piece of crap more so because of it's amazing status as a mcdojo art.

A BJJ club would love nothing more than for some ass-wipe like you to issue a challenge on your terms on the street. Then you'd see how effective of an art BJJ is - especially ignorant assed noobs like you.

What kind of moron would try to take someone down to the ground on concrete

Ones that would end up on top in dominant position. WTF is up with concrete? Yeah it's hard but doing goundwork won't kill. The concrete argument is soooo based out of ignorance - yes they're dirty, but rarely, and I mean rarely do I see a sea of broken glass, bricks, needles, and other dangerous foreign objects. My biggest worry is if I rolled into some dog shit.

Try to land safely with someone in your guard in those settings.

Another bone-head, ignorant comment. Yeah, BJJ is all about pulling guard, nothing else. There's no such thing as takedowns, the mount, side mount, knee-on-belly, and the ability to dictate the fight.

MMA matches aren't even a good representation of real fights

You're right here. MMA matches today involve highly trained and conditioned fighters who would kill the average person, and even the average bullshit know-it-all "martial artist" on the street. If they messed with you bdipab, you'd wish there was a ref and that you had the ability to tap.

[bdipab]

oh, fine no one can defeat the bjj black belt on the ground or standing up and mma fighters are invincible. Alice so you can go back and have tea while the Cheshire Cat farts on your face. By the way if you ever glanced in a thesaurus you would see that idiot and moron are synonyms and if you looked at your posts you'd see that it is possible to be both. I was posting respectfully but someone took what I said and made assumptions about me and my background.

You're actually going to argue that bjj is the end all and be all. Certainly love to see you in a fight with that bull crap or are you an instructor who's livelyhood depends on your mcdojo brainwashing.

[jubaji]

Certainly love to see you in a fight with that bull crap.

Well that's easily done. There are thousands of hours of recorded fights with BJJ folks, unlike most dojo-darlings like yourself who just sort of feel really sure that you could fight.

[Tant01]

...if you ever glanced in a thesaurus you would see that idiot and moron are synonyms .

Used loosly perhaps but according to Webster's (New universal unabridged dictionary delux 2nd edition) moron is the highest classification of mental deficiency, above imbecile and idiot.

I didn't really expect you to know the difference

I'm done here...

[bdipab]

syn·o·nym Pronunciation Key (sn-nm)
n.

1. A word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or other words in a language.

[jubaji]

kids today...

As far as someone saying I'm a dojo darling - go do a search for fight vids (common street encounters) these are what I've been in.

Oh, you have video of yourself in street fights? Great. Post them.








Let's see...what's going to happen next?...

[bdipab]

By far the best way to put forth my viewpoint was stated in this online article (don't know if i'm allowed to post url's) but here it is
"Addressing Gracie claims

“Ninety percent of all fights go to the ground” Ask anyone who constantly has to engage in hand-to-hand combat or lives with violence whether this statement is true. I guarantee that the answer will be “no.” Cops, soldiers, military operatives, and even bouncers rarely find themselves grappling on their backs in their line of work. This is not to say they don’t think it’s a useful thing to know, but it’s generally not the main way their fights take place.

In truth, this Gracie statement reflects more about their art than fights in general. A Gracie practitioner’s strength is groundfighting; it makes sense that he would try to take a fight to the ground, where his skills are most likely far greater than his opponents. It thus becomes a self-fulfilling statement; most of a Gracie practitioner’s fights go to the ground simply because he actively tries to take them there.

“Our success in the UFC and other MMA matches shows our art’s street effectiveness.” In fact, the Gracies’ proclivity for going to the ground makes it dangerous for use on the street, for many reasons.

* First, let’s compare the environment. MMA matches take place on nice, clean padded mats, surrounded by a ring or a chain-link fence designed to give under pressure. Also, the ring is clear of any obstacles besides a referee. A real fight, however, takes place on hard concrete or asphalt, where even a casual bump of an elbow, knee or skull can lead to a break. And if you ever try to go to the guard position in a real fight, your opponent needs only to stand up and slam you to the ground to crack your spine. (In a mat fight, fighters shrug off this move with nary a wince.) And that’s not even taking into account obstacles such as signs, fire hydrants, broken glass, etc. that can cause you serious injury while grappling.

* Secondly, let’s look at techniques. While the UFC and other mixed-martial arts events like to claim that they are “no holds barred,” the fact is, there are illegal techniques – eye gouges, throat strikes, fish-hooks, etc. As well, fighters, as a matter of courtesy, have an unspoken rule about attacks to the knee (and rightly so, since they can be so permanently debilitating). The fighters are also wearing protective cups, which makes groin strikes far less of an issue. And all NHB events bar the improvisational use of weapons, which obviously is not an issue in a fight. As a result, groundfighters get away with tactics in a match that would be disastrous in a real fight. Case in point: I know of a guy who was put in a triangle hold during a fight. The hold, for those unfamiliar with it, is a Gracie signature choke in which an attacker uses his legs and one of his opponent’s arms to choke the neck. Well, on this occasion, the fighter escaped the hold (and ended the fight) simply by tucking his chin down, opening his mouth, and taking a big chomp at his opponent’s groin. Yet, the triangle has been successfully used many times in competition.

* And let’s not forget about the possibility that your attacker is armed. I need not explain why wrestling someone with a knife is a bad idea. The Gracies are always quite indignant about this concern, insisting that of course they wouldn’t advocate groundfighting with a knife-wielding opponent. The problem with this assertion, and indeed, with the strategy of taking a real fight to the ground, is that a skilled knife fighter rarely even reveals that he even has a knife. Most likely, someone going up against such a fighter will only realize belatedly that he has been cut or stabbed; even afterwards, he might not ever see the knife used to wound him.

* Oh yeah. The a**hole you’re fighting probably has friends. Who are also a**holes. No UFC fighter has to worry that his opponent’s buddies will jump into the Octagon. But the a**hole’s friends probably have no such reservations about jumping up and down on your skull. The Gracies have always declared that, “While it’s true that groundfighting is ineffective against multiple opponents, it’s impossible to prevail against more than one attacker anyway, so you should run and concentrate on defeating single opponents.” No realistic martial artist would deny that it is extremely difficult to defeat multiple opponents simultaneously – certainly far different from the way martial-arts movies make it seem. But it can, and has, been done. It’s just that doing so depends on explosiveness, speed, and mobility, and groundfighting is at heart a slow, marathon chess match – not a sprint-like blazing shootout. When a groundfighter says it is impossible to prevail against more than one attacker, what he really means is … it’s impossible for him.

* Run! It’s the fuzz! When you get into a fight – it’s best not to take the chance that the police will take your point of view. In fact, they probably won’t, and instead haul both your butts off to jail. Now, of course I’m not suggesting you break the law or evade the police. But maybe you might want to finish things off quickly and leave quickly – before your opponent’s buddies hear about the fight and arrive to help him. It’s not going to happen if you grapple with him. Even the best grappler will take a minute or two to overwhelm someone fighting for his life. A good striker, however, can end things in seconds – just look at Mike Tyson’s championship bouts from the days when he was truly dominant in the boxing world.

I’m not saying learning BJJ or groundfighting is a waste of time. But I just don’t think it should form the core of your fighting strategy and training. "

[Ronson]

Ask anyone who constantly has to engage in hand-to-hand combat or lives with violence whether this statement is true. I guarantee that the answer will be “no.” Cops, soldiers, military operatives, and even bouncers rarely find themselves grappling on their backs in their line of work

Here's where your wrong dumb-ass. These guys you mentioned above are, for the most part, not hand-to-hand combat experts. If you let the enemy/suspect get close enough to you to lay hands on you, you're f_cked! This is 2005 and the cops/military have modern weapons/tactics and strength in numbers to rely on. These guys deal in life or death, not drunken after-club fights.

I'm not gonna even bother with this prick anymore. I understand, it's a defence mechanism. I get it - BJJ'ers pull guard all day long and concrete is the most inhospitable place on earth. Fine you win.

I actually prefer that there will always be people like bdipab. It's very disheartening when I know there are people, like at my BJJ/MMA club, who are so so good walking the streets. A small part of me doesn't want BJJ/MMA to go mainstream, because there's nothing like having the upperhand on Joe Blow/Point fighting champion when I "pull guard on the deadly cement."

[Tom Yum]

wow, you're a moron actually. Let's take the instance of a bite. You arm bar someone and they decide to bite the tendon, which you've conveniatly placed over their mouth,.

I was taught to plant my shoe into the guys face and give em a little neck workout when doing the armbar. It comes to quad strength vs neck strength. You can still keep your knees tight while exerting a boot into the face....but I guess BJJ doesn't train for the street or do dirty moves.

I have investigated it thoroughly, as I said in previous post there is someone to learn from bjj, but it is no where near as effective as people would like to believe it is - you won't own someone simply because you know bjj.

Really? You mean one free trial lesson in BJJ wouldn't equalize Napoleon Dynamite with Ken Shamrock.

Liar.

[Tom Yum]

I’m not saying learning BJJ or groundfighting is a waste of time. But I just don’t think it should form the core of your fighting strategy and training. "

You've got some interesting points.

Some things you forgot to consider:

Many BJJ schools have instructors in muay thai, boxing, judo or FMA/Silat allowing students to work on their stand up game or with weapons.

BJJ is more than just the guard. The guard is just one position. There are variations of it and its a helluva lot better than letting a bigger, stronger person mount you. If you get knocked to the ground without your weapon drawn, would you rather have someone in your guard or mounting you while raining fists, elbows and forehead at you?

"Jumping" guard is a ring-tactic, but using the guard is not. I am no expert, but I can tell you for fact that the BJJ system can be adjusted for street self-defense.