gracie juijitsu vs other pure styles

[JuijitsuMan]

I have an interesting topic to discuss with you guys so here goes!

Although style vs style doesn't happen much anymore since most MMA fighters today train in all ranges (striking, clinch, takedowns, ground, submission), I would still like to see what your thoughts are on basic strategies used to defeat other M.A styles using GJJ.

Assuming traditional GJJ (kick, clinch, takedown, submit) as a pure style, how would you create a stratgey to defeat opponents in:

Shootwrestling
Wrestling
Kickboxing
Boxing
Judo
Hapkido
karate

The reason I ask is that I may be in a position to face some of these other pure styles (Not all dojos haven't gone MMA) and I'm looking for the best strategies to defeat them. None of my opponent are world champions or anything , lets just say 4 years experience in there art. neither me nor opponent has gi on.

Here's a sample of what I have thought off -- please correct me if I am off base:

Shootwrestling -- fight from guard. But I need a fuller gameplan here as exactly what to do -- assume NO GI

Wrestling -- fight from guard -- triangle choke

Kickboxing -- clinch to mount ,sleeper

boxing -- double leg to mount, sleeper

Judo -- This one confuses me...

Hapkido -- clinch to mount ,sleeper

karate -- clinch to mount, sleeper



I am really just toying with this strategy, maybe those more knowledgable can add more details to each one or correct me if I'm wrong.

[aseepish]

First: Shoot isn't a pure style, but a prototypical "MMA".

Fighters who practice the other so-called "pure" styles may not necessarily be "pure". Just because a particular gym or dojo hasn't gone "MMA" doesn't mean that the individual fighter doesn't have a mixed background.

At my old Judo gym, for example, I trained with a former member of the Canadian Olympic Greco-Roman wrestling team. Another training partner was a Russian guy with a Sambo background. I myself had a BJJ background. When I was living in Singapore, my Wing Chun instructor was also a Kyokushin black belt with Muay Thai experience. I also trained with a Hapkido instructor there with Wing Chun and JKD experience.

Even within a particular "style" there could be many sub-styles. In boxing you have boxers, punchers, brawlers, etc. Some boxers like to fight outside at long range, others like to fight inside.

[Tim McFatridge]

JJMan,

Just my thoughts here so take it as you will. First off I have to agree with aseepish.

Shootwrestling- guard to triangle... most Shootwrestling practitioners are very well versed on the ground and this includes the guard. They are usually very well rounded fighters so you will need to work a little more than just that. You will haveto work your set ups better and try not to telegraph you moves.

Wrestling- guard to triangle... again wrestlers are well versed on the ground as you know and they also train the guard which means they know how to fight from guard position both top and bottom. Most wrestlers call it scissors instead of guard. Again you will have to work your set ups and watch out for the shoot. If you come up against a good wrestler he will have a really good shoot and will be very powerful and hard to get off of you. This is where you can work your shrimping.

Kickboxing- clinch to mount. This sounds like a good idea just be careful that you do not take too much punishment while in the clinch. Watch out for knees and punches. Also, remember if he is a true kickboxer he is not going to just stand there in the clinch and give you time to set up for a takedown. He will most likely use footwork to move you around and try to keep you off balance and mess up your timing all the while trying to land some good shots on you. Learn how to defend against the knees and remember to always keep your chin down... keep it tucked behind your shoulder to prevent a knockout.

Boxing- double leg to mount... again this sounds good but remember a true boxer is going to be really light on his feet and will have superior footwork to you. A boxer will be able to move in all directions to avoid the double. If you are wanting to shoot in for a double leg on a boxer or even on a kickboxer be sure you do not shoot in from too far back. If your distance is too far they will land a big shot on you as you come in. To set up the double leg you would be better off doing it from a close quarter postition. I never shoot in on a guy unless I can throw a jab and touch him. From this distance it is much harder for him to counter. Not saying he can't but it is harder.

Judo- well you already know a Judo player is going to have some good throws and takedowns so be prepared for that.

As for the other styles I am not sure... what you mentioned sounds good. Just remember to set up everything you do in order to be more effective.

I hope this helps but remember it is only my thoughts based on my experience sparring with different fighters.

Good luck

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

JJMan,

Wrestling- guard to triangle... again wrestlers are well versed on the ground as you know and they also train the guard which means they know how to fight from guard position both top and bottom. Most wrestlers call it scissors instead of guard.

Youre thinking of catch wrestling............. 'Wrestling' certainly doesnt train the guard

[Hardball]

The answers will be biased because they are here in the BJJ forum. Try posting this thread in other forums also, that way you can get unbiased and honest opinions. Such as BJJ Black Belts have been getting knocked out left and right and BJJ sucks for street self defense. LOL

[Tim McFatridge]

Yes I was thinking about Catch Wrestling... my apologies for not making that clear and for not asking if he was talking about Catch Wrestling or Grecco Roman or Collegiate.

[Mr. Miyagi]

When I was still a white belt I trained with two guys who already had black belts in Judo. One of them weight about 20 lbs more than me. They weren't really that great on the ground, they were learning at the same level as me at the time, and we were pretty even.

So unless a judo guy has done a lot of submission grappling, their ground game usually isn't on par with their standup throwing game. And even their standup...ok, you probably won't trip or throw them down, but a double or single can still get them.

Black belt Judo guys are experts at throwing and falling. They know a little bit about grappling and submissions, not enough to be a blue belt without further training. They never even encounter some normal bjj subs in their judo training (kneebars, heelhooks, etc).

I think he was referring to his strategy at dealing with a wrestler, of course they don't train the guard, but he would want them in his guard. Because they would take him down first. Keep in mind these guys can pick you up and slam you back down if they don't have any other ideas. I armbarred a wrestler once (his first time at bjj class) and he did this to escape it, it worked and I let go for fear of getting crushed, then the teacher told him not to do that in training.

[pstevens]

Shooto: Some guys are just as good on the ground as your average BJJ person. So you should work your gi chokes (using your own gi); that'll catch 'em off guard.

Judo: Assuming you're a blue belt or higher, you shouldn't have too much problem. However, when I was a white belt there were a couple brown belt judokas in my classroom and they had good newaza. In fact, one of them could tie me in knots. Probably not today though, I was relatively new then.

Wrestling: Tough, but not impossible. My friend is a former HS State Champ. Before he did BJJ, I would test myself against him. I could never sweep him, but caught him in kimuras and occassional triangles. Armbars aren't as effective, as wrestlers are pretty strong.

[JuijitsuMan]

GJJ vs JUDO

So the consensus on GJJ vs JUDO from what I've read in this thread is that its best to being them to the ground and finish there since they are great at throws and trips. But the only way suggested to do this was using a double or single leg.

Based on my own experience clinching high with a national judo champion was never a good idea. I'd be thrown in a tenth of a second before I ever tried a takedown or throw.

So it makes sense to shoot low. The question is how does a judo player react to a double leg? Unlike a wrestler he probably won't sprawl. If he does I can play the guard. But he may do something even worse , when I shoot low he may PULL me towards him and throw me or put me in his basic guard.

Another idea I had was to start from the guard. Literally lay on my back (or back towards the side) and bait him into coming into the ground, but this may not work. If anything he may back up and expect me to stand up. If he does come in I can recover the guard and maybe put him in it and work from there, but if he refused to come to the ground, what should I do?

Oh and if your wondering why I just don't clinch with him and try taking his back like Royce did with Remco Pardo, the reason is in my experience I would be thrown in a tenth of a second by an athletic judo opponent before I have a chance to even try for his back. Thus its either shoot low for a double, or bait him in by lying on my back expecting a grappling match.

Both these sound a little crazy but then again maybe they just would work! Any more tips people?

[aseepish]

The question is how does a judo player react to a double leg? Unlike a wrestler he probably won't sprawl. If he does I can play the guard. But he may do something even worse , when I shoot low he may PULL me towards him and throw me or put me in his basic guard.

A double leg in Judo is called morote-gari. I had mixed success with this technique in randori - Judo players do sprawl.

You could pull guard from your initial contact, but that's boring judo.

[Balo]

Some comments made above are very sweeping statements. If you are fighting a judo guy, then it depends what rules are being used. Are the rules MMA style, and will it be in a gym?

If it is a 1 and 1 fight in the street, then Judo throws will be fight finishers. I got to say that alot of blue belt GJJ guys can win Judo blackbelts on the ground, however if you think it is always the case then you are plain WRONG And if you mix in Punches etc then you are even more wrong.

[JuijitsuMan]

Balo,

I'm beginning to think a GJJ blue belt will get smashed to death on the cement against an athetic bigger stronger judo opponent with as little as 2 months experience. All he has to do is grab the opponent and smash him head first into the pavement. Its a cruel way to win a fight but this bjj man would have the death penalty handed to him.

So that we now know that a BJJ man with years experience can be defeated in street by a judo man (60-80 more muscle ) lbs heavier with only a good hip toss, and scarfhold... the real question is HOW THE HELL IS HE SUPPOSED TO SURVIVE????

What would YOU tell a BJJ man in this scenario to DO? Suppose he can't run or talk his way out...