Just rewatched Royce verses Sak on DVD

[Qkfx]

Miyagi

I disagree, I don't think Sak allowed Royce to continue for the first 1/2 hr. I think at that point, like you said he really wanted to finish Royce with a sub, and Royce has a very good defense so he couldn't. Royce is obviously not an offensive fighter; his build, take downs and strikes are weak. However defensively, avoiding the hard shots, getting into the clinch, etc and trying to wait a guy out is his game, which just doesn't cut it anymore. As far as his technique, I think it's pretty good for NHB because that's all he has, no size, strength, speed, etc.. As for the Carslon guys, yeah they're very good but Sak beat Conan with a sub, Wallid blows chunks in NHB, so overall Royce did ok for himself with the tools he has.
Speaking of that Pride. You know who I was really impressed with? Ken "my heart" Shamrock in his fight with Otsuka. Wow Ken is really brave. They showed the KOTC altercation between Ken and Otsuka and Otsuka said "I kick yo ass!" He didn't say it once but three times! Bas even had to come in a hold the raging Otsuka back! But did that scare Ken? No way! Ken came right out and ko'd a fighter the caliber of Otsuka...very very impressive.

[Rippedfat]

Here, Here Miyagi..well said.

A lot of the crap Royce and big brother Rorion publicly stated, at the crest of their popularity, has come back to embarrass them. Basically you're only as good as your last fight and Royce hasn't done too well. Besides you can't fight 3 times in 7 years and be taken seriously....Rorion has quite a dilemma on his hands at this point. Every time Royce fights he gets spanked. Rickson saw through him years ago and split so he can't vicariously elevate his stature through him. Oh well I guess the "pure waters" of knowledge being taught at Torrance Academy are just another, well marketed, bottled, generic brand!

PS I would still love to see the Mark KERR X Royce fight come to pass.

[Aloha From Hell]

Originally posted by Rippedfat
Oh well I guess the "pure waters" of knowledge being taught at Torrance Academy are just another, well marketed, bottled, generic brand!

LOL!

We better watch out. Hawk will tell his bumpal Royce to come and squash us like pimples

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

Why is it, that no matter what Royce does, I still like the guy? Sure Royce talks crap about the Carlson Gracie camp and Walid and then he gets shown whats up with not only a choke, but a Clock Choke. But I love the guy still, despite his constant talking crap talking about his "win" over Sak. I'd still cheer for him in his next fight

[Rippedfat]

Hookah Smokin Caterpillar...
... don't feel bad. I like Royce too. He's very charismatic and had his 15 minutes in the spot light. I'll concede on many of my critics points. i.e. he brought BJJ into our homes and made many realize the in-effectiveness of what they had been practicing while at the same time showing how effective the ground game really is. Having said that however, people have to realize that the GRACIE's can be and are consistently beaten in the "new" world of MMA. Despite their poor showing Royce and big brother Rorion continue to talk $hit about their invincible system. Geez give it up already...

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

I have to agree, Royce was schooled. I also did not like the special rules that he called for in the PRIDE fight in the Grand Prix. Though I was rooting for Sak, I couldnt not help feeling some sort of sympathy for Royce.

I wonder what his leg looked like after Saku was done with them....I wonder if any pictures were taken??

Couture's leg looked HORRIBLIE against Rizzo, but he was able to walk without a limp after the fight. Royce on the other hand...

[Newbie]

Mr. Miyagi

"Sak allowed Royce to continue for half hour, he could have pummeled him much earlier if he wanted to."

Do you really expect me to believe that Sakuraba could have "Nelmarked" Royce and left him flopping and twitching in the first 30 seconds of the fight except decided to stall for an hour and a half? I thought he was all about entertaining his fans. Which is more impressive, entertaining to his fans, and belittling to Royce? To brutally KHTFO/submit him in a total blowout, or to put his fans to sleep for an hour and a half with a snoozefest? Gee, that Sak sure has a strange way of entertaining the crowd.

"For the first few rounds Sak is just standing there doing nothing, the two things he does are go for a kneebar and standing kimura"

Wait a minute here. First you say he "allowed Royce to continue", then you say that he tried a kneebar and a standing kimura. Both of those moves would have ended the fight if Sak had actually gotten them. Are you saying that he intentionally let Royce out of the kneebar and standing kimura, or was he perhaps actually trying to WIN THE FIGHT?

Sakuraba has never shown much ability to finish anyone quickly unless by submission. He couldn't catch Royce Gracie in a submission hold and had a hard time finishing him with strikes. Sakuraba is not a devestating striker or an aggressive fighter in any sense other than the fact that he can be aggressive with his submission attempts.

[BIGGIE]

I would like to dissent.

Sak could not knock Royce out. For a striker, that's pitiful. Royce actually was the aggressor. Royce's lunging jabs was countered by Sak's strikes but Sak could not knock Royce out. I was surprised by that.

Perhaps Sak's game was to lay back and give Royce confidence and to trick Royce to burn himself out but Sak did not submit nor knock Royce out.

If Sak was so great, why wouldn't he take Royce to the ground, humiliate him on the ground then let him stand up and knock him out? That's total domination. You know, sort of what Vanderlei did to Sak.

[Aloha From Hell]

Originally posted by Newbie
Sakuraba has never shown much ability to finish anyone quickly unless by submission

And your point is?

There is always an element of chance in any fight. I think Sak could have disposed of Royce earlier in the match, however, he chose to leave nothing to chance and thus played a conservative game. We all know that the Gracie's are spinmasters of the first order, if you knock a Gracie out with a clean strike he will claim it was a lucky punch. Sak chose to make Royce his bitch. By beating Royce up under his own rules and forcing him to quit, he left no doubt who the better fighter was. Unbelievably, the Gracies still disputed the victory, claiming that Sak had tapped in Round 2. On this very forum Hawk restated the claim that Royce had defeated Sak. The bottom line is the Gracie's are bad losers and bad sportsmen. The true test of an athlete is how he handles defeat. I once admired Royce but I lost respect for him when he claimed that Sak had tapped and escaped defeat by cheating. What a pathetic display by a once great athlete.

Incidentally, Hawk is reading this thread but won't comment. He is embarassed by the truth.

[Aloha From Hell]

Hey Hawk,

Will Royce come to my house and squash me like a pimple for badmouthing him?

Oh yeah, and will you kick my ass if I come to Texas?

LMAO @ the Gracie morons.

I can't believe Hawk cleaned the toilets for these guys. Rorian sure must be a slick talker to persuade a fellow lawyer to clean his piss & shit up. LOL.

[Rippedfat]

Just curious, are the Gracie's including these losses by Royce in their famous, "we've never been beaten" slogan? Or will Rorion change tactics and re-title their claim with "we were unbeaten for 65 years", (stopped counting sometime in the late 90's). A small point but I was just wondering. And why did Rorion continue with this unbeaten $hit, while at the same time publicly acknowledging Helio's two well "known" and documented losses. I know the one against Kimura was not NHB, (Helio should thank his scrawny 145 lbs little ass for that), but the one against Santana was???? Enquiring minds want to know!

[Karlinhos]

i know i may get flamed for this, but this is just what i've witnessed when it comes to the "undefeated" thing. before i go on, i also want to state that i'm not backing either side in this argument, just adding to the pot what i've seen/heard.

rorion has claimed that his family's style (GJJ) is undefeated against other single styles of MA in an NHB-type setting. not hybbrid styles/practitioners. so, with that in mind, Helio's fight against Kimura doesn't count as a loss since that was sport. and neither does the loss against santana since santana was helio's student.

with ALL of the pro fighters in NHB now cross training in BJJ nowadays, it's pretty safe to say that any of the fighters that the gracis lose to will have trained in BJJ on some level. so, with taht in mind, they'll more than likely remain undefeated against any lone style off MA.

just my $.02, sorry for being "wordy".

[Mr. Miyagi]

Karlinhos, that's a very twisted way of interpreting that although I'm sure I've read that they are just plain undefeated, not necessarily against other styles.
Yeah, Sak could have taken care of Royce much earlier. He played it extremely safe and hardly did anything in those first two rounds besides just standing there. And Royce did manage to escape the two isolated sub attempts. If you watch the fight again, you see that Royce ALMOST taps to the kneebar before realizing that he has a little room. And that standing kimura thing was pathetic, why didn't Royce use that "family technique" of his to get out of that position rather than stand like that for 10 minutes? And don't you Royce fans have any comments to make on the quotes of I've posted that Royce said? I can come up with many more a$$hole statements he's made if you want.
Mario Sperry and Vitor Belfort and Amaury Bitteti seem like the nicest guys, I feel sorry for them that they had to endure statements from Royce berating them publicly. Especially since Royce was the most well known and respected bjj guy at the time and they were just starting to become known. If Wallid got so lucky why won't Royce face him again? Wallid has been pursuing the rematch relentlessly.

[Newbie]

Aloha From Hell

I undesrstand that it may be difficult to understand, except my point in saying that "Sakuraba has never shown much ability to finish anyone quickly unless by submission" combined with his general lack of aggression in anything other than submission attempts was in direct respomse to Mr.Miyagi's statement: "Sak allowed Royce to continue for half hour, he could have pummeled him much earlier if he wanted to."
Please provide me with an example where Sakuraba has pummeled ANYONE quickly. The only time he has been remotely effective with his strikes, with the exception of his quick stunning of Silva en route to being KTFOd, which many people have done due to Silva's lack of punch defense, is with leg kicks against exhausted, buttflopping opponents. I stand by my stance that Sakuraba is not a devestating striker and has trouble finishing anyone quickly unless by submission and that his inability to catch Royce Gracie in a submission hold caused him to have a hard time finishing Royce. He did not ALLOW Royce to continue.

[Human Fly]

Originally posted by Newbie
Aloha From Hell

I undesrstand that it may be difficult to understand, except my point in saying that "Sakuraba has never shown much ability to finish anyone quickly unless by submission" combined with his general lack of aggression in anything other than submission attempts was in direct respomse to Mr.Miyagi's statement: "Sak allowed Royce to continue for half hour, he could have pummeled him much earlier if he wanted to."
Please provide me with an example where Sakuraba has pummeled ANYONE quickly. The only time he has been remotely effective with his strikes, with the exception of his quick stunning of Silva en route to being KTFOd, which many people have done due to Silva's lack of punch defense, is with leg kicks against exhausted, buttflopping opponents. I stand by my stance that Sakuraba is not a devestating striker and has trouble finishing anyone quickly unless by submission and that his inability to catch Royce Gracie in a submission hold caused him to have a hard time finishing Royce. He did not ALLOW Royce to continue.

I have to agree with Aloha, you are talking sheet. Your arguments do not even merit a response.