BB Magazine Article--More Than Six Months of Any Martial Art Unnecessary

[Tony10]

Anybody see this?

The author claims that--if you're talking street-fighting--it would be better to study lots of different arts but you don't really need more than six months each.

Why? He asks the question: in any streetfight he's been in or you've been in, name all the techniques you've used. He said he's used punches, a round kick, a front kick and a sidekick, once. With his baton (he's also a cop)--he has longtime Kali training, regardless the basic strikes are the only ones that he's used or have been effective.

And so the argument goes, in streetfighting, the basic techniques are the only ones that you'll get to use, so if you're learning lots of advanced techniques and your goal is street survival, you're probably wasting a lot of time, because it's stuff you'll never use.
Learn the basics, perfect them and move on.

So is this guy enlightened or is he providing a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none fallacy?

[TracyKarate]

I believe your last statement is a fair account of this article(although I have yet to read it). He is in part correct but loses the "big picture". Like a skyscraper, the basics are the foundation on which any art is built. Where I would disagree with the article is that the longer you train in any art, be it striking or ground fighting the better your basics will become.

[Hawk]

It depends on who he's fighting. If he's fighting someone that knows very little, it'll probably work. If he's fighting someone that's real tough, then he's in for rude awakening. Now, if he boxes for six months, then trains Karate for 6 months, but still keeps up his boxing practice, then goes to GJJ/BJJ, but still practices boxing & Karate. After 5 years, he'll have been boxing 5 years, doing Karate 4 1/2 years, GJJ/BJJ 4 years and on that way,
he may have something. To me it would depend on if you could get a good basics foundation in 6 months. If you can, and keep drilling those basics over the years and have an awesome foundation in around 7 or 8 styles, then you'd have a good chance in a street fight.
Hawk

[Ryu (non-working password]

I agree with Hawk.
I have been grappling for about 5 years now, but most of the stuff I really want to work on is basics. Just because basics are what you use in a real altercation doesn't mean you can master them in 6 months...

After 6 months of BJJ training I was in NO way a master of the basics...that's almost absurd. But I do agree with one thing though...don't waste your time learning the fanciest moves in the world if you are worried about street defense. Stay with the basics and drill them for years.

(with his strategy that would make me the grandmaster streetfighter..... hmmmm wait, actually yes he's right. I like that idea! )

Ryu

[Zhoozhitsu]

In 6 months, you will know the basic techniques in any style. What sets apart a skillful fighter from an unskilled fighter is execution, not knowledge of techniques. Execution takes repetition. If you learn a style and move on after 6 months, you will always execute like a beginner and not amount to much.

It's like starting a new business. What sets apart a successful entrepreneur from the rest is execution, not the business idea.

[Tony10]

Yeah, Zhoo, I see your point.

However, the idea I think is to keep training (and of course sparring) over and over to perfect that execution of which you speak. That the six month mark was more a cutoff point for techniques.

This guy is talking street-fighting/self-preservation only (he also mentions including knife technique as part of one's training).

[Hawk]

This cannot be happening. This is scary. I have to agree completely with Zhoo again. I'm glad the day's almost over.
Hawk

[TV Set]

Originally posted by Hawk
This cannot be happening. This is scary. I have to agree completely with Zhoo again. I'm glad the day's almost over.
Hawk

I concur. Like most endeavours, it is possible to get to an intermmediate level of expertise in a reasonable amount of time. However, this is when the law of diminishing returns kicks in. As one progresses in skill, each jump requires more training than the last. The extra commitment required to reach the higher levels tends to sort the men out from the boys.

[Water Dragon]

I think it's a bunch of crap. If you look at a white belt and a purple doing an arm bar from the mount, I suspect there is a huge difference. Both are doing a "basic technique" but the white belt will be able to pull it off on an untrained guy by muscling through it, maybe. A purple will snap it off with finesse and relative ease.

I don't think that by learning the tech at that level and moving on you will ever be able to "own" the tech in the way a purple belt would. There is a lot more to mastering a tech then practice and it involves the instructor pointing out hundreds of small points over time.

You simply can't practice what you don't know. You may be able to figure out a few of the finer points by yourself but will always be sub-par to the individual who sticks with his art and practices hard through out the years under a competant instructor.

[likuid]

one more point, how does anyone expect to pull off an advanced technique with beginner level training? to say that advanced stuff doesn't work, without putting in the time, just doesn't make sense

[John Bennett]

I would tend to agree with the author's premise.

Think about the difference in skill level between a completely untrained guy in his first BJJ class and a guy who has been training 3x per week for six months.

Think about the difference in skill level between a completely untrained guy in his first Muay Thai class and a guy who has been training 3x per week for six months.

For just basic self-defense and street-fighting the six month guy is going to be WAY ahead of the untrained guy.

Even though we all know it would be 10 times better to be a purple belt and the six month guy will have, in our eyes, missed out on so much and only a very basic understanding of technique, the author's premise is still correct.

[TV Set]

Originally posted by John Bennett
For just basic self-defense and street-fighting the six month guy is going to be WAY ahead of the untrained guy.

No, he just thinks he is. And the result... he will getting his ass kicked REALLY badly.

[Maxximus]

not necessarily true...

In all fairness, i think that what one can glean from only six months of training really depends on individual ability as well as just how hard you are training within that time period (One class a week for six months ain't gonna get you nowhere). Personally I can't honestly look back on myself at the point where I was six months into ANY art and say that I was prepared at that point. And when it really gets down to it, anyone who is only concerned about street defense would buy a firearm or a stun gun. Martial arts practice really boils down to individual accomplishment and artistic interest. You can't really become accomplished in any style or realize the depth of any art by only doing it for six months. But in general, i would think that six months of training will give you enough to beat up some wu$$ who probably wouldn't start a fight with you in the first place, but it isn't nearly enough to stand a chance against a truly accomplished technician or a real tough brawler.

[MikeJKD]

I have actually given this one a lot of thought, and apparently, so has everyone else. Jim Wagner is the author of said article, and in the new issue, he is called on the carpet for writing what he did. Here's my thoughts:
If a student wants to learn how to defend himself, I think he or she should make it a point to find a few good instructors that continue to evolve themselves, and study with them long term. Now, the question has to enter "how do you know who's a good instructor and who isn't?" Maybe that's why you go to several places for a shorter time. It gives you a basis for comparison. In my own experience, the students who stay with me the longest and train the hardest are the ones who have had some kind of background in martial arts. Maybe they got a black belt in karate or something and realized that their prior training wasn't all that realistic, but whatever the reason, they showed up here and stayed. So far as the jack of all trades thing, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Fighting is about all ranges, not just one. Mastering it means mastering all five ranges (weapons, kicking, punching, trapping, and grappling) and anybody that thinks having one specialty is the way to go will find themselves going the way of the Dodo bird...into quiet extinction. Picture a basketball player that could pass the ball better than anyone in the NBA, but who couldn't shoot, rebound, dribble, or make free-throws. You'd never see him get off the bench. Equally useless is the fighter who can only grapple and has no knowledge whatever about punching, kicking, mass attack and weapons.

I think that in the end, it's critical to cross train with a lot of good, high level people for an extended peiod of time. I don't think it's realistic to say that a student should devote his or her whole life to studying martial arts, but let's face it...when it comes to the names people think of when they think about good fighters, is it a laundry list of people who only studied for a few months in six or seven arts, or is it a list of people who have taken a dedicated approach to training each range with the best people that they can find, and who do it with passion for their whole lives? Bruce Lee, Rickson Gracie, Frank Shamrock, Tito Ortiz, Randy Couture, Marco Ruas, and all of the other greats are people who loved the research and the training more than anything else, and who kept working to become better all the time. They aren't people who were satisfied with "Oh, I just finished my sixth month of boxing....time for Jiujitsu!"

Bahala Na,
Mike

[Ryu (non-working password]

I think a better thing to have said is that one may need only basic skills to do well in a streetfight. But those basic skills have to be trained and mastered in order to be good.

The skills one is TAUGHT in 6 months might be enough for self-defense, but you have to train the basics for years, and apply them for years in order for your body to know what to do.
It's your body that reacts in a fight, not necessarily your "learned" mind.

Besides, it's best to use what works on trained fighters AND untrained fighters because you'll never know who you get in a fight.

Ryu