Tyson or Ali better for MMA

[Newbie]

Which style of boxer do you guys think would have been better suited for a MMA carrer? Mike Tyson or Muhammed Ali?

Would Tyson be harder to take down to the ground because of his low center of gravity or would Ali be harder to take down because he didn't commit as much and didn't close the distance for you like an inside banger does?

I guess it comes down to which is better for someone who is primarily a striker, the "sprawl and brawl" strategy often utilized by fighters such as Tank Abbot and Igor Vovchanhin or the "sprawl and stall" often utilized by fighters such as Marco Ruas and Pedro Rizzo.

Any opinions?

[PassiveGuy]

Tyson definetly, unfortunately the muscle incoordination caused by Parkinsons has left Ali fairly useless for MMA ;-)

[Pit Dog]

LOL @ passive guy.

Tyson would be better. MA fights are short, and Ali's style was to go the distance.

Tyson, OTOH, was made for this kind of thing. Take the hungry Tyson, give him some anti-grappling/wrestling work, enough knowledge of subs not to get caught, and you have one dangerous mofo.

Just a ribshot w/ small gloves by Tyson would be brutal, let alone a power jab ... or (heaven forbid) a hook or uppercut.

JMHO

[BIG BIRD]

WELCOME BACK PIT!!!!!!!!!!! I HAVE MISSED YOU! IN A TOTALLY HETEROSEXUAL WAY OF COURSE

[Newbie]

Pit Dog

Don't you feel that Tyson's style makes the fight more dangerous for him as well as his opponent since he takes more chances? If a young Ali learned to sprawl well enough, he could run away from his opponent and sprawl while not committing very much on any of his strikes. He could win a decision by piling up large numbers of long-range jabs and leg kicks until time expires. I think that is a pretty safe strategy.

"MA fights are short, and Ali's style was to go the distance."

The shorter time limit means that he has less time to stall out and his cardio doesn't have to hold out as long.


Tyson, on the other hand, punches on the inside and commits more to his punches. If he doesn't finish his opponent quickly, he will be vulnerable to being taken down to the ground. Tyson's style would put him in a position where his chances of winning would be dependant on him hurting his opponent just like they are in boxing.

[Marcus]

"He could win a decision by piling up large numbers of long-range jabs and leg kicks until time expires."

I tend to disagree. Most MMA striking battles are fought in close range (the clinch). A lot of what makes a jab so effective in boxing is negated by leg kick, shooting in, and the clinch. Not to say that good distance boxing skill wouldn't help, but a close in pounding style with hooks and uppercuts, like Tyson, would me more effective IMO.

[Pit Dog]

Hi Big Bird - I took it as a compliment, not a pass

As far as who'd be better, I just think Tyson's lower center of gravity would make him harder to take down, and his explosiveness harder to stand up to.

I think Ali would be would be a piece of cake to take down, and I don't think too many people would be intimidated to try. I think most would be leery of (a young) Tyson and as a result might not commit 100%.

I also think on the ground Ali would be harmless, but Tyson still dangerous. Ali would also be easier to keep on the ground, whereas with a little training Tyson could get up easier than Ali ... and might well be the one on top.

JMHO

[Shimora]

Once again Pit Dog shows his lack of knowledge about boxers.


The answer is simple. Both fighters would do very well in MMA provided they trained for it accordingly.

Ali would take a Mo Smith type approach to the fight and hope to weather the storm on the ground. He would let the other fighter tire himself out from the top position and then try to get back to a standing position towards the latter part of each round.

Tyson would be more like a Tank Abbott approach. He would come in hard throwing big punches. Due to his superiority to Abbott physically he would have little trouble dominating his opponent. Anyone can get caught with a submission but it would be more likely that Tyson would KO the opponent before this could happen.

[sabrutat2]

Once again Shimora shows his lack of knowledge about imping.

Cheers

Stef

[Maxximus]

Ali would be better. Tyson would get disqualified for biting.

[sabrutat2]

Ali would make Tyson go to sleep.


Cheers

Stef

[Newbie]

Marcus

"Most MMA striking battles are fought in close range (the clinch). "

I disagree. I think that striking should be done at a distance and the clinch should be used by ground fighters to smother punches and set up takedowns. Anyone attempting to strike on the inside has to do his damage quickly or he will be outpositioned on his feet and be taken down to the ground. If a striker finds himself in a clinch, he should IMMEDIATELY abandon any thoughts of striking and contest the battle of position, balance, and leverage as though his life depends on it and attempt to force a temporary standstill in terms of the takedown as he seeks to break away and disengage until he has esatblished adaquate distance before he even thinks about striking again. Actually, he should do this long before a clinch is initiated. He should do this whenever he finds himself within three feet of his opponent and/or he sees a potential rush or cornering tactic being attempted or even set up by his opponent. He should rarely attempt more than one flicking jab or leg kick en route to retreating at any point in the fight. He should let his opponent come in, throw a jab, and immediately follow the jab with a sprawling retreat all as a combo. Leg kicking should be done at a greater distance and should be followed up with more retreating.

A good example of this tactic being used successfully is Chuck Liddel's fight against Jeff Monsen. Marco Ruas also used this tactic against Oleg Taktarov in the Ultimate Ultimate I. The only time the fight wnet to the ground was when Ruas took Taktarov down. Ruas was robbed in the decision in my opinion because he landed far more punches than Taktarov did.

[Marcus]

Newbie,

That approach has two problems.

One, you can't be the aggressor if you're always backing away. If is goes to decision, you'll win in striking, but lose in aggressiveness and ground fighting.

Two, a good wrestler won't allow that. Think about Couture/Belfort. Belfort won a lot of fights using the approach you described, but Couture weathered the storm, and used his strength to keep the fight in close range.

Think about it. Who would want to stay clinched with Tyson for long? He'll destroy you at that range. If you make it a striking battle, he'll beat you with that too. He stays the aggressor either way. The ONLY way to beat him is to put him on his back and then sub him.

[Newbie]

---Marcus

"Belfort won a lot of fights using the approach you described"


Let's take a closer look at the approach I described.

"he could run away from his opponent and sprawl while not committing very much on any of his strikes."

Vitor Belfort runs away and does not commit on his strikes?

"He could win a decision by piling up large numbers of long-range jabs and leg kicks until time expires. "

Vitor Belfort won many decisions by running away and racking up points with meaningless jabs and leg kicks until time expired?!?

"He should rarely attempt more than one flicking jab or leg kick en route to retreating at any point in the fight."

Vitor Belfort never throws more than one flicking jab or leg kick and immediately retreats?

"He should let his opponent come in, throw a jab, and immediately follow the jab with a sprawling retreat all as a combo. Leg kicking should be done at a greater distance and should be followed up with more retreating."

How could you possibly come to the conclusion that Vitor Belfort won his pre-Couture fights, or any of them for that matter, using the "sprawl and stall" strategy I described. He used more of an agressive "sprawl and brawl" stategy.

---Pit Dog

What are you basing you're opinion regarding the comparitive potential in grappling abilities between Mike Tyson and Muhammed Ali on? Are you basing it strictly on the fact that Mike Tyson is 5' 11" 220 pounds and Ali was 6' 3" 215 pounds? Most Olympic Freestyle Wrestlers in the 220 pound weight class are about 6' on the dot or even slightly taller. I admit 6' 3" is a little tall for that weight class, except not outrageously so. Mark Coleman and Mark Kerr are the two most prominent wrestlers in MMA today. They both compete in the 220 pound weight class during Olympic trials. Mark Coleman is 6' exactly and Mark Kerr is 6' 2". Mark Kerr was an NCAA Division I National Champion at 6' 190 pounds in college.

Also, that only covers the area of takedowns. There is also the matter of groundwork. Why is a short, stocky boxer going to be any better at guardwork than a tall, lanky boxer? I say guardwork because I assume we are talking about a situation where the boxer is taken down to the ground and is not the one executing the takedown. Are the overwhelming majority of BJJ practicioners with good guards short and stocky? Are tall, lanky BJJ practicioners typically weak in the area of fighting from the guard?

[MikeJKD]

Let's remember that Ali fought a mixed art fight once in Japan. Although he didn't beat the snot out of his opponent, he was never taken down, and his footwork kept him out of range of most shoot attempts. His legs took a pounding, though. That fight went on for about thirty minutes, and was called a draw. You can see it in a video called "Kings of the Square Ring." I think everyone will recognize the japanese fighter as Inoki...a very well respected fighter in Japan and elsewhere, especially then and in his prime.

I think Ali was better suited to NHB, especially if you're talking about sending Ali and Tyson into the octagon with the skills they have now, and not training them for NHB. Ali was much more level headed, patient, and intelligent than Tyson, and while tyson was a hell of a hard puncher and a damned good brawler, he lost his ability to avoid his opponents after Cus D'Amato died, and that pretty much made him easy to hit and easy to clinch with. That means that a good grappler would more than likely get him to the ground without a whole lot of effort. Ali on the other hand had the command of distance to avoid the tackle and keep sticking the jab.

Just my own opinion,
Mike