Kung Fu Challenge!

[GinSueDog]

Shimora,
They had many BJJ stylist from all over to pick from, but they picked out of all the people John Marsh because they honestly thought Sean Scott would win since the challenge had only one rule, "no bitting." So they picked the biggest, baddest person they could find. Check TMI's website, they say it themselves.-ED

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

Yeah Shimmy, that was a good point.

However, if it was the other way around do you really think the Kung Fu guy would've won? I mean honestly bro, you must've gotten your ass kicked pretty bad by a BJJ to be so bias against it. You can pretend (or troll, depending on what you're doing) that the Kung Fu guy would've stood a chance had they been the same size or even reverse the size. BTW, I love this quote

"A 230lb guy in top physical condition could defeat a 41 year old 155lb guy without any training."

Exactly! No training, meaning no training for fighting, meaning he is a big puss. Well maybe not meaning that, but it does mean that Marsh trains in fighting, and the Kung Fu guy trains in punching bricks.

[Shimora]

I have been to the site and ive seen the clip of the fight.
The Kung Fu guys claimed that only BJJ guys were brave enough to take on the Kung Fu guy. When I saw this Kung Fu master I laughed. He was a little weed that looked like he'd never trained hard in his life. Maybe the Kung Fu guys did want John Marsh because then they would have a legit excuse when they got beat.

Hookah, I havent had my ass kicked by BJJ. I just find it amusing how many BJJ guys on various internet forums are throwing their fists in the air saying "yes! BJJ kicks Kung Fu's ass".

At least next time this happens have guys of equal skill levels and equal weight so there is no excuse. Couldnt they find a 200+ lb Kung Fu guy that had a bit of wrestling experience? That Kung Fu fighter was an absolute joke. If there was really $5000 up for grabs im just sorry I didnt know about this challenge before hand.

[Ryu (non-working password]

You know, to a certain extent I agree with Sempai here.
I found it kind of dumb for people to parade around claiming BJJ is superior and kicks ass after that "fight." That wasn't even a fight in my opinion. There's no way that little guy could have won, and the video clip looks exactly the same as when I take on that Northern Shaoling Kung fu friend of mine. Same thing happens, I take him down, control him, and get the same ude garami. But I don't jump up and down and celebrate my "victory" with my hands raised high in the air...the guy has no ground experience.
I hope you guys don't consider that a real "fight"......if so I've been in literally hundreds of "fights."

Ryu

[Maxximus]

You know, you can't deny that the kung fu guy was cluelessly stupid and probably had no idea what he was really getting himself into, but at the same time, I am 5'7" and alternate between 150-160 lbs. I am trained in MMA and I train and work out reasonably hard for someone who doesn't do the stuff for a living. But in all honesty, If I had to fight John Marsh I don't think I would've lasted much longer than that kung fu guy. So I don't think this fight really proves anything besides the fact that some American wannabe Shaolin monk kung fu guys are still pretty stupid even after all this time they've been exposed to the real fight game.

[Watchman]

They escaped the Gulag!!

So this is where Ryu and GinSueDog hang out in their off time from KFO. I thought we owned you guys.

[GinSueDog]

Watchman,
Hey I have to spread the love you know. BTW there are quite a few closet KFO posters here
-ED

[Masala]

If I remember correctly, Ed, that forum is where you came from, and checked out Bjj after a bunch of us invaded it (couple years ago) ...correct?

[GinSueDog]

Masala,
Something like that if memory serves me correctly...it was this forum that got me into BJJ

[bobby_steeles]

Originally posted by YeLLa-TiGeR
It means that Marsh is one baaaaaaad mother f ucker. Sean is saying the only way he could win is by shooting Marsh with a gun.

i heard the rematch will be an old fashioned hillbilly shootout...the first guy to get his hat shot off loses.

[DanInNeckaha]

size matters

The size and age advantage does make this match-up pretty much moot. If the heavyweight champ fought the super-welterweight champ who would you have your money on? To make it more accurate make it the super-welterweight champ from ten years ago against the current heavy champ.

In a match-up of equal size, age, and experience I would still go with the BJJ guy as the favorite. But to give the Kung Fu guy a handicap like this is just ridiculous.

[War Pig]

Originally posted by Shimora
If there was really $5000 up for grabs im just sorry I didnt know about this challenge before hand.

Yeah, right, I'm sure you would have hopped a jet right over there.

You pathetic weasle. You don't even train!!!! That Kung Fu guy would have whipped you ass.

I get so sick of loud-mouth internet warriors like Shimoron who never miss an oppontunity to slam BJJ but wouldn't last 30 seconds with a blue belt.

[GinSueDog]

A post from the Kung Fu guys that set the whole thing up, it is a pretty interesting read...-ED


Gentlemen,

Why do so many of you take Sean's loss as a threat to you? Sean lost. TMI lost. The vast majority of you San Soo people out there wanted us to lose. You got your wish.

The Boys from Brazil, starting with the creative genius and physical talent of Helio Gracie, have been completely kicking the butt of Karate and Kung Fu practitioners for about seventy years. And Kung Fu guys have been getting their tails handed to them on TV for about 25 years. Starting with the annual show on ABC Sports of Aaron Banks World of Martial Arts, in the 70's, where Kung Fu fighters lost every fight to boxers, all usually in the first round, to the UFC where at least 3 San Soo people have fought and lost to grapplers. (In the World of Martial Arts telecasts from Madison Square Garden, the Kung Fu contingent got additional concessions each of the years the competition was held, to where the Kung Fu guys did not wear gloves while the boxers did, and the Kung Fu guys could kick below the waist while the boxers didn't, etc... The boxers simply handed the Kung Fu guys sound thrashings each and every fight.)

Sean is just the latest to fall to a grappler. It is amazing the amount of internet coverage that this event has caused, but there are valuable lessons to be learned, from the $5000 private lesson Sean got from John Marsh last Sunday. And perhaps some lessons that we all think we already know can be understood more comprehensively, as we all analyze what nearly all of us consider to be the tremendous art and science of San Soo.

Lets start with some basic physics...

Take a Volkswagen, pop a souped up engine in it, tune it up perfectly, put the best gas in it, install all the latest gadgets and computerized equipment, the finest interior and safety belts and airbags. Make it the most up to date and mechanically perfect Volkswagen to ever have been put together.

It would all mean nothing when it gets hit head-on by an 18 wheel Mack Semi Truck! No matter how good of a Volkswagen it is.

Say what you will to dissociate what happened to us at TMI last Sunday from what you do as a San Soo practitioner. Run down Sean's abilities, if you feel you must. (Just know that NONE of the anti-TMI posters on this East Hills Forum have met Sean and worked with him.) Try to find excuses in his "lack" of years doing San Soo. Use any excuse or issue any criticism you want.

But in your quiet and private moments when you can be honest with yourself, maybe you might admit to yourself that even assuming (for the sake of argument) that Sean can hit real hard and kick like a mule, that he is strong and has tremendous endurance, that he might just have been the Volkswagen in the above example. By the way, whether you want to believe it or not, Sean is strong and does strike hard. He could pass the 1st Force Recon indoc requirements today (assuming his right arm was in working order), but the fact remains that Sean, compared to John Marsh, was the Volkswagen. A souped up Volkswagen, but to no avail.

Technique is not everything. In your quiet and private moments when you can be honest with yourself, think about a football player who has the absolute best technique of playing tackle that has ever been performed by any human in the history of football. If this man weighed only 155 pounds, then the reality is that he would NEVER play in the NFL. In fact if this man with the best technique in the history of football weighed 175 pounds or even 200 pounds, guess what? He would never be good enough to play in the NFL. The inferior but adequate technique of larger and talented men would prevail and secure the job as tackle.

You know this is true.

Size, strength, speed, power, quickness all matter. A good big man will beat a good small man almost every time. We are not talking a big slob versus a skilled smaller man. We are talking a big talented man vs. a smaller man.

---------------------------

There is a horrible and evil myth that is common in San Soo. The belief that size doesn't matter. It allows San Soo people to say and teach that a "petite woman" (to quote a recent post) could, if she had a good reason, cripple John Marsh (or someone like him).

I use the phrase "horrible and evil" because to have students believe this utter and complete nonsense can get them killed. There is NO petite woman on earth who has a reasonable chance of defeating John Marsh. In a quiet private time alone with nothing but your honesty, you know this is true.

There is a scene in the classic movie, The Wizard of Oz. As Dorothy is discovering that the Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz is nothing more than an imposing projection controlled by a man working the Wizard controls in a room off to the side, the "Wizard" says, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

With our smackdown last Sunday, I would have expected more gloating out there in the San Soo community. Instead, there is the expected ridicule and derision. (And concern that Grapplers don't respect San Soo. News flash. They never did.) But there seems to be a mild panic and a scramble to find answers on how to deal with a grappler. Because in your quiet times alone with nothing but your honesty, you know that you would not want to face John Marsh. That your San Soo, unless you are big, strong and very experienced and well trained, would, with respect to John Marsh, be just like the Wizard. You would like to "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" But you know in those quiet times that you must pay attention to the man behind the curtain. And he is a mere mortal.

Another myth is that since San Soo is for real fighting and not competition, that to add rules like no eye gouging and biting, as in the original UFCs, makes San Soo ineffective. I daresay that most street fights throughout the history of San Soo that have been won did not hinge on the act of biting or poking. Rules like not biting and eye gouging are a limitation to be sure. But everything else is available. San Soo allows a whole lot of things, does it not? Does the power of San Soo only lie in the ability to poke and bite? I think not. And in your quiet times alone with just your honesty, neither do you.

Anyway, take one of San Soo's petite females getting out of her car in a mall parking lot, and a ticked off John Marsh is coming at her with terminal intentions. She can bite and poke all she wants. I guarantee you that it will do no good. In your quiet time you know this to be true.

Here is a piece of information you do not know. Sean, while pushing Marsh's head away, to try and keep him from finishing him off, had his thumb accidentally go all the way to the first joint in Marsh's eye. Marsh's response? He moved his head. Big deal. Even if Sean had had intentions of trying to gouge his eyes, he could not as he had a house with arms on him. But with that being said, Marsh is one of those people who if you did poke his eye out, he would kill you as punishment. In your quiet time alone with your honesty, imagine fighting someone like that.

And in your quiet time you know that the most likely outcome if a motivated-by-bad-intentions Marsh was coming at you. You get out of your car, he is enraged and coming at you. How can you say that he will kick your butt in competition but that you will magically prevail in the street? In this street scenario he is ready and coming for you. The element of surprise is virtually gone. Remember, John Marsh is a professional fighter, a large, talented and extremely strong man. And he can hit and kick hard as well. You are not just facing a pure grappler. Not that the outcome would be any different if he was limited to just grappling. But in that parking lot he can do anything he knows how to do. He trains hard everyday. He fights almost every week.

San Soo people do not. We are advised by cross trainers like Jeff Frater, Chris McCune, and even Eric (ESANDY) Johnson, who know the power of grapplers that hard training is advisable. If you think that two hours a day, three or four days a week that the average dedicated San Soo practitioner spends practicing will prepare you for a professional fighter, then "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." The above named gentlemen, among many others, have been telling everyone what they already knew from experience about the Boys from Brazil.

But also note the following in your quiet private time when you are honest with yourself, that Mr. Frater, Mr. McCune and Mr. Johnson - with all their extensive training and hard, hard work - would not bet on themselves in a real street fight against a man like John Marsh. And they know their stuff. Do you doubt that they know a whole lot of grappling and are quite good at it? And they would avoid a street fight with Marsh if at all possible. Jeff and Chris are young men too. With all their skills they are too small to prevail over a Marsh. (Please note that in our forum disputes with Mr. Jeff Frater we did not say that what he said to do in a fight against a grappler was wrong. We were simply trying to make the point that at about 160 pounds, a San Soo fighter - or even another jiu jitsu based fighter - would get whooped-on in a street fight with John Marsh.) Very few people can be legitimate giant killers like Helio and Royce.

Size matters people. Sean was only half kidding when he made the comment about shotguns being invented for people like John Marsh. Man developed all weapons to overcome better opponents as well as to make victory over inferior opponents easier.

San Soo is a tool. It is not the ULTIMATE WEAPON. You have to use your body in a fight. San Soo doesn't fight for you. You use it. You use the principles and mechanics and techniques you have learned and practiced. But if you are a normal human being and you encounter a professional, highly trained fighter in the street who wants to kick your hind end into next week, or into eternity, then just like Sean last Father's Day, you, too, will be nothing more than a fly on the windshield of the car name John Marsh.

Treat an encounter with a Marsh type opponent like you would if you encountered an opponent with a knife or if you encountered multiple opponents.

Exit stage left. If you cannot run away, do your best. But don't count on making it home for dinner with the wife.

San Soo is a powerful tool that if needed by the vast, vast majority of us will be used against someone who is probably not a skilled professional. It is ideal for most of those situations.

Sean said that he would not trade the experience with Marsh for all the tea in China or all the Soccer balls in Brazil. We knew that size matters. The article of that name (Size Matters) was published on our website about two years ago. Our biggest mistake was not that we didn't believe it then when we published it, but that we didn't believe it enough.

Do not treat San Soo as anything more than what it is. An excellent tool. Don't tie your ego up with it having to be the ULTIMATE WEAPON that will defeat everything in all circumstances. To repeat, you are the one doing the fighting, not San Soo. If you feel the need to be able to defeat whomever you might have to go against, then start taking steroids and lifting weights for starters. Then train your ass off like Jeff and Chris and others do.

If you are not realistic about your abilities and think that San Soo will allow you to always prevail, you may not end up as lucky as Sean did with only a sprained elbow and a black eye.


Now assuming you are realistic about your abilities and want to improve your ground fighting skills, then take advantage of the knowledge of talented instructors out there in our San Soo community...

The argument that ground fighting is "in" San Soo may be true. But it was never taught to any large extent. No doubt Ron Gatewood is correct when he says that had Jimmy lived long enough to see the ascendancy of the Gracies that we would have been exposed to much more grappling and anti-grappling based techniques. But he didn't live long enough and we weren't.

Bottom line, you have to rely on folks such as the following for the information.

In the Inland Empire you have Dave Hopkins and Bill Vigil. You can find Jeff Frater at Bill Lasiter's school. Lari Beebe is out there somewhere too. Near the L.A. - Orange County border you have Bill Hulseys studio where you can find accomplished competitive grappler Luis Trasvina, as well as Eric Johnson and William Cannon.

I'm sure that there are more of these San Soo instructors who are quite competent at grappling. You can use this forum (East Hills) to network as you already do.

Here in the South Bay you can find the Gracies, the Machados and Professor Caique.


As an aside, if you want to drop by TMI and see a clear copy of the video and talk to someone who has been there, done that; if you might be interested in learning what strategies and such that Sean successfully used - as funny as that may sound, or just to talk about San Soo in general or specifics, you guys are welcome to get the information straight from the horses mouth.

This invite is genuine and sincere. We tend to do what we say.

[Watchman]

GinSueDog, you should post this over at KFO.

[sakattacked]

Size mattered in this fight but there is one thing that the fight proved, and that is to counter the claim by Kung Fu guys and other striking artists that their techniques are lethal. This is basically what the Gracie Challenge was all about.

It would be much better to have two guys of similar size fight. But if Kung Fu is so deadly, how come it didn't work (against a big opponent or not)?

So we don't need to jump up and down about BJJ kicking Kung Fu's ass, but the fight still proved a point - without ground fighting skills, you're not a complete fighter.