what is the best martial arts for me to learn?

[phillyman]

Ken Jeet

Hey Kenjeet question for you. You said you trained with different Kenpo instructors. How do go Kenpo teachers train there students. After the warm up do they usually hit padsthen go to line drills(for foot manuevers) then practice the defense moves on a partner. Forgive me if my question is unclear i know what im asking but not sure if its coming out right. Im looking for tell tale signs of a good kenpo instructor. Thanks for any info

[KenJeet]

Phillyman,

I have experienced great disparity in the proficiency of Ed Parker American Kenpo instructors. A good American Kenpo instructor will literally teach his lesson like a university course. You will literally sometimes feel overwhelmed with all of the physics and geometry lessons involved with truly learning the American Kenpo the way that Ed Parker wanted it. Many people today do monkey see monkey do Kenpo without really knowing the principles and concepts involved. As Mr. Parker stated, "Principles and concepts take precedense over sequences of motion." In other words, you have a whole lot of people today just showing the technique but not showing the principle involved to make it work. Hence, if anything at all changes during the course of action, they will not know what to do. My instructor does line drills, one on one drills, energy drills, and all that good stuff. What I would recommend is trying to learn from one of the 1st generation instructors of Mr. Parker or someone in that instructors direct lineage. Some of the best organizations where you could get your start from are the Chinese karate Federation (www.ckfonline.org), the WKKA (Worldwide Kenpo Karate Association), the IKKA (www.edparkerikka.com), the AKKS (American Kenpo Karate Systems) or the LTKKA (Larry Tatum Kenpo Karate Association). Hope this helps. I am personally under Mr. Sean Kelley from the CKF.

[phillyman]

Thanks kenjeet

Thanks for the info Kenjeet.

[faixa-roxa]

Jobber, why are you against grappling techniques? I have had the opportunity to review many styles of fighting, and I hate to tell you, but if you want something that really works, you will inevitably find yourself a convert of brazilian jiujitsu. I have sparred with a lot of different stylists,and jiujitsu always seems to confound the strikers at every turn! My last little episode was a guy who had come to our school to take a free class. He was a gym owner that was an isshin-ryu stylist and also had some wrestling and had set some weight lifting records. We started out jiujitsu w/ gi. He obviously lost those rounds. Then we went light contact w/gi w/ me not striking; he lost. Then went full contact no gi w/ me still not striking; he lost 3 more times.So look into jiujitsu my friend. You will find what you are looking for. good Luck!

[sidder]

If you want to fetishize principles over practice, go take kenpo. But it won't likely take you beyond a certain limited point. Kickboxing/muay thai will give you all the striking principles you need and will dispense with the ones you don't. If you want to feel confident in a REAL rough and tumble, all the principles in the world won't help you if it isn't balanced out by sufficient full contact ringwork.

[KenJeet]

Don't be narrow minded. As much as I like Muay Thai and train in it myself, let me ask you one question....What would a Muay Thai guy do if he were suddenly grabbed from behind in a bearhug with both of his arms pinned? Without having some fundamental knowledge of self defense techniques, you will not escape and get smashed into a wall or something. Trust me, I have seen it happen working a few years back in private security and as a bouncer. When you analyze what system to recommend to someone you need to try and take in account every possible scenario that he may encounter and provide a recommendation that will expose him to as much as possible.

[Szczepankiewicz]

KenJeet

Alright Mr. Know-It-All...

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Anyway, is it better to get a foundation in a single art for a year or two before you start cross-training?

From what I have learned about Martial Arts is that almost every school has a different philosophy, and different teaching methods. The style of Jujutsu that I study has almost identical striking techniques as that of EP Kenpo. However, we have never been directly influenced by EPK or any other contemporary art form. The techniques are similar, but the philosophies are totally different.

My point (and yes I do have one) is that we discourage first year students from crosstraining until they are into the Brown levels. It usually takes about 18 months of training to get to that level.

We discourage, we do not prohibit.

I suppose if you went to a school that was formed around crosstraining with a single instructor staff, that would be different. But crosstraining in different arts at different schools would confuse the heck out of me.

But maybe just me.... who knows.

Piece,
SZ

[Bruce_Fan]

Hey, Ken Jeet

Hey,

I was wondering with whom did you study your Jun Fan gung Fu?
I'd be curious to hear about your experience.


By the way, I like your posts man. You present info well.
There are some guys on here who seem to think that they have the market cornered on truth.

(I don't mean necessarily on this thread either, but on the forum.)

Anyway, would like to hear from ya.
Feel free to send me an email if you want to tell me your answer in private,
Love80srock@aol.com


Thanks
Bruce_fan

[KenJeet]

Szczepankiewicz,

I here you man and I respect your post. I feel that ideally, a person should first train in one system for at least a couple of years with a good instructor that will teach the person the principles that make techniques work along with helping that individual increase his personal attributes to be able to pull of the technique. I must say that it is hard to train in more than one system, especially for a beginner. It is not as hard if you are training a stand up system along with a purely grappling system, because for some reason, the mind could more easily adapt. However, if you are training lets say two different stand up systems that use different methods of blocking, parrying, checking, etc., it is a bit more difficult. That is why I always tend to recommend beginning students to train in American Kenpo for a couple of years before attempting anything else. The reason is that American Kenpo teaches you kicking range, trapping range, stand up grappling, foot maneuvers, strikes with parts of the body that people have not even thought of, etc., It allows you to grasp other systems' principles and concepts a lot easier because you have already been exposed to so much in Kenpo. By the way, I am curious......what system of Jujutsu do you train in that you specifically know that you use the same strikes as in Ed Parker's American Kenpo. Have you ever been exposed to true American Kenpo with one of the 1st generation guys?

[sidder]

Narrow minded? You obviously have a certain emotional investment in kenpo. The problem with Ed Parker Kenpo is that it might expose you to 1000 different scenarios, but it's bread and butter striking skills are mediocre at best. That's why Larry Hartsell left Ed Parker for Bruce Lee (see this month's Grappling Magazine). Muay Thai may not teach defenses for rear bear hugs (although kyokushin does!), but 99% of street fights are initiated with a punch or barrage of punches. Muay Thai will teach you how to see them coming and react appropriately. And if you don't, you've probably cultivated enough of a chin in the ring not to have to worry. After a year of kyokushin and kickboxing, a kenpo instructor who was my size challenged me to some friendly sparring. His shins were soft and sensitive and his boxing skills were very 1-2. After I gently cleaned his clock, he made the excuse that in a real fight he'd just go for the balls. Well, anyone can do that. You don't need to go to Ed Parker to learn that. After a solid year of muay thai, you're not likely to be very intimidated by most anyone. You'll be strong, fast, and deadly. As for a "solid foundation", and "principles" that can be applied to other arts, mauy thai will give you that. If I want pure principles, I'll take some biophysics texts out from the library. If I want to learn how to fight in the most efficient and deadly possible way, I'll kickbox. There are scenarios that kickboxing doesn't encompass, but better to acquire a few deadly tools than a thousand mediocre ones.

[Szczepankiewicz]

99% That's a lot. How did you arrive at that number?

I only have indirect exposure with Kenpo, more of an academic study. My sparring partner is 3 times removed from La Tourette.

You can check out my art on our website listed in my profile.


I think everyone has a certain emotional investment in their art.

A lot of the Kenpo combinations depend heavily on "if I hit them like this, then they will do this, and then I will do this."

Another thing I find difficult to grasp is a lot of martial artists who tend to want to strike soft targets. I see this a lot in EPK. In a self defence situation, it's difficult at best to strike specific targets.

Anwho, I am with you on the consistant systems.

Peace,

SZ

Wassup with you and your boy QKFZ is Florida? I had no idea Florida possesed people who actually have a clue!

[KenJeet]

Sidder,

Apparently the one with the emotional attachment to a system is you. All you talk about is Kickboxing, kickboxing, and all together now...kickboxing. Remember that no system contains all truths in combat. Kickboxing like other systems has its pros and its cons and may provide a partial truth but it is not all there is. If you were dilligent enough to read some of my prior threads, you would know that I train in Jun Fan Gung Fu/ Jeet Kune Do Concepts, Filipino Kali, Muay Thai, Ed Parker's American Kenpo and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. Yea, real emotional attachment I have! I just feel American Kenpo is a great base to have because it exposes you to so much. By the way, where did you get the 99% figure from and where do you live, because here in Miami, Florida I have seen it all. I have worked in private security detail as well as being a bouncer and can tell you that most of the fights that I have seen start off with a push or in trapping and grappling range, being that most fights occur in close quarters. Don't assume because you beat up some mediocre Kenpo fighter you know everything about the system. For your information, most of the top Kenpo practicioners spar full contact and do kickboxing drills. Perhaps you may be talking about some commercialized corner shopping center school, but not the Kenpo people that I train with. Oh, and just to make my final point, you'd be surprised at how much of Kenpo is in Jeet Kune Do Concepts as perpetuated by Dan Inosanto and I think we could all agree that the man is a genius. As for Kenpo striking only soft targets is just plain smart. Kenpo fits the weapon to the target. You are not going to headbut someone's head with your nose, but rather the top of your head on their nose. It only makes sense.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Dang, I always thought it was my nose to their forehead, thanks for straightening that out.


No, my point was when you are in a high pressure situation, you usually use gross motor skills, correct?

Being in security and a bouncer you would have more experience than I, so it is a valid and honest question.

If one of your key responses is a soft tissue strike, what happens when you don't hit the soft tissue?

I understand that you are probably an advanced practicioner, that's why I am asking how you approach the issue.

Also, have you done any research into anything written by the brawlers: Marc MacYoung or Peyton Quinn?

SZ

[bobby_steeles]

Originally posted by sidder

After a solid year of muay thai, you're not likely to be very intimidated by most anyone. You'll be strong, fast, and deadly.

Also posted by sidder

If I want to learn how to fight in the most efficient and deadly possible way, I'll kickbox.

lol! do you also write those two page ads in black belt?

[sidder]

99% is just my own experience. Sucker punches, haymakers; pushes, too. But all things that muay thai is best equipped to handle was my point. I practice Brazilian jiu jitsu, Japanese aiki jiu jitsu, and kickboxing. I don't need to practice them for fighting. I already feel very confident in that zone. But, in all honesty, if I had to recommend just one system to someone looking for pure street toughness, it'd be muay thai (which I already said doesn't encompass all possible scenarios). I'm reminded of this girl I worked with who was a black belt in taekwondo and asked me to fool around light sparring with her and my punches just shot thru her way-open guard (no-contact, I didn't hit her). And she didn't know how to deal with leg kicks. After I exposed her weaknesses, she went on to espouse the virtues of tkd. I'm sure kenpo has its uses at the rudimentary level. But it doesn't have the footwork, the shin and forearm conditioning, the cardio conditioning, the combinations, and (perhaps most importantly) the power of kickboxing. The reason why you don't see those kenpo guys who do "full-contact" in the K-1 is because they wouldn't last 30 seconds. You, like my kenpo-instructor friend, might reply that the k-1 doesn't allow for all of the funky kenpo attacks. Well, neither does the real world. Practice kenpo for fun. That's great.