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  • Why Problems in The Middle East?

    Many people, including my new best friend flyingclockchoke, do not know the history of the middle east and wonder why all the fighitng. Here is a short factual history. Draw your own conclusion about who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

    Crash Course in Middle East History


    Nationhood and Jerusalem
    Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE -- 2,000 years before the rise of Islam.
    Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

    Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over the land for 1,000 years, with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
    The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 CE lasted no more than 22 years.

    For over 3,000 years, Jerusalem has always been the Jewish capital.
    Jerusalem has never once been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. In the 20 years that Jordan occupied Jerusalem (1948-1967), they never sought to make it their capital, nor did Palestinians demand it as theirs.

    Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Jewish Bible.
    Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

    King David founded the city of Jerusalem 3,000 years ago.
    Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

    Jews pray facing Jerusalem, wherever they are in the world.
    Moslems at the mosque in Jerusalem pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.



    Arab and Jewish Refugees
    In 1948, approximately 630,000 Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
    In that same era, approximately 630,000 Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to brutality, persecution and pogroms.

    Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

    Arab refugees were intentionally not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of 100 million worldwide refugees since World War Two, these Arabs are the only refugee group in the world that has not been integrated into their own peoples' lands.



    The Arab - Israeli Conflict
    The Arab world includes 22 separate nations.
    There is only one Jewish nation.
    The Arab nations initiated five wars against Israel, and lost.
    Israel defended itself each time and won.

    The P.L.O. Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel.
    Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons.

    Under Israeli rule, all Moslem and Christian holy sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
    Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated: all synagogues in the Old City were torched, and tombstones from the ancient Mount of Olives cemetery was used to pave roads and build latrines. Jews were also denied access to places of worship at the Western Wall, Tomb of Rachel, Tomb of Joseph, and cave of the Patriarchs.


    The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs
    Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.
    Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

    The U.N. has been totally silent on the Palestinian history of suicide bombings, lynchings, terrorist attacks, bus hijackings, cafe bombings, etc.

  • #2
    Or to Paraphrase what you just wrote.

    They are a bunch of ****ing maniacs that have always caused trouble and conflict. There way of thinking is so far removed from the rest of the civilized world that they should all be exterminated.

    Comment


    • #3
      not quite

      John-
      Not excatly. While I'm as pissed as anyone and do think the terrorist belief system is the norm and not an extreme element, I do not want them all eliminated. I believe all people are equal, but that does not mean all idiologies, belief systems, religons and so on are equal. I believe in the Just War Doctrine, a hard and proper response to end a threat. (you can read about it in Chuck Colson's section at breakpoint.com), and it has been the standard for western civilization for a while now.
      It is undeniable that a people's culture, laws, and belief in right and wrong is a direct result of their central belief system. Do they believe man is the center of the universe as the humanist of socialism and communism state? If so what is the result of their cultures. Is the God of the Muslims the true God, living according to that belief what are the results? Chrisitan civilization?
      Which has afforded people the greatest freedom? Who has most oppressed and terrorized people? Again all people are equal in the eyes of God and should be treated as such , not all ideologies.

      Comment


      • #4
        Very well spoke

        ...But I will have to disagree with you... FlyingClockChoke cannot be your new best friend for he is now mine....


        Where did you get this information? I would like to follow up on it if possible.

        Thanks man!

        SZ

        Comment


        • #5
          SZ

          SZ-
          My rambling isn't a quote from one source. just the result of a lot of reading. But you can find info on the Just War Doctrine at www.breakpoint.com. Just to clarify for our liberal friends, I use to be very liberal, a pot smoking, screw the establishment, look at the oppression of the U.S. gov't type.
          But a friend lead me to realize I was only hearing one side of the argument. The media, pop culture, universities certainly were only giving the leftist point of view. Well obviously with research I have done a complete 180. I fully acknowledge the wrongs of the U.S. but if you place them into a true historicaly accurate world view then I don't see how one can side with the left.

          For instance I used to be so ashamed and repulsed by our taking the land from native Americans. But I had never stopped to consider native American tribes had warred among each other for centuries, murdering, raping, stealing. Why was I so idignant when people with white skin and a different culture did the same?
          The same with slavery. Africans had been doing it for centuries, and it still continues in the Sudan, but when white Americans did it I was sickened, yet excused it with Africans.

          The point is I'm not justifying it by any means, but it changes your perspective of finger pointing at America to looking at all of mankind having a very sinful and treacherous history. The fact that we have in large measure overcome many of these wrongs is something to be proud of. The fact that people of all types have suceeded here due to freedom and responsiblility and not social engineering is also something to be proud of.

          Comment


          • #6
            Dude, I think you voted for Buchanan by "accident"

            Well spoke indeed. I don't like everything that the US has done, or even individual citizens have done, but as the man says....

            "Let him without sin cast the first stone." I think that's how it goes.

            If everyone loved each other we wouldn't need Self Defense, or Martial Arts would we? Maybe a little Tai Chi, but that should about do it eh?

            I think we all realize how messed up our country is at times, but we also realize how wonderful the reasons are and how it came to be.

            This country was built of imperfect people, by imperfect people, for imperfect people.

            But I guess that's just not good enough for some of us....

            Comment


            • #7
              Jimmy speaks!

              By former United States President Jimmy Carter

              An underlying reason that years of U.S. diplomacy have failed and violence in the Middle East persists is that some Israeli leaders continue to "create facts" by building settlements in occupied territory. Their deliberate placement as islands or fortresses within Palestinian areas makes the settlers vulnerable to attack without massive military protection, frustrates Israelis who seek peace and at the same time prevents any Palestinian government from enjoying effective territorial integrity.

              At Camp David in September 1978, President Anwar Sadat, Prime Minister Menachem Begin and I spent most of our time debating this issue before we finally agreed on terms for peace between Egypt and Israel and for the resolution of issues concerning the Palestinian people. The bilateral provisions led to a comprehensive and lasting treaty between Egypt and Israel, made possible at the last minute by Israel's agreement to remove its settlers from the Sinai. But similar constraints concerning the status of the West Bank and Gaza have not been honored, and have led to continuing confrontation and violence.

              The foundation for all my proposals to the two leaders was the official position of the government of the United States, based on international law that was mutually accepted by the United States, Egypt, Israel and other nations, and encapsulated in United Nations Security Council Resolution 242. Our government's legal commitment to support this well-balanced resolution has not changed.

              Although the acceptance of Resolution 242 was a contentious issue at Camp David, Prime Minister Begin ultimately acknowledged its applicability, "in all its parts." The text emphasizes "the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security." It requires the "withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent [1967] conflict" and the right of every state in the area "to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."

              It was clear that Israeli settlements in the occupied territories were a direct violation of this agreement and were, according to the long-stated American position, both "illegal and an obstacle to peace." Accordingly, Prime Minister Begin pledged that there would be no establishment of new settlements until after the final peace negotiations were completed. But later, under Likud pressure, he declined to honor this commitment, explaining that his presumption had been that all peace talks would be concluded within three months.

              There were some notable provisions in the Camp David Accords that related to Palestinian autonomy and the occupation of land. A key element was that "the Israeli military government and its civilian administration will be withdrawn as soon as a self-governing authority has been freely elected by the inhabitants of these areas to replace the existing military government." This transition period was triggered by an election in the occupied territories in January 1996, approved by the Palestinians and the government of Israel and monitored by the Carter Center. Eighty-eight Palestinian Council members were elected, with Yasser Arafat as president, and this self-governing authority, with limited autonomy, convened for the first time in March 1996.

              It was also agreed that once the powers and responsibilities of the self-governing authority were established, "A withdrawal of Israeli armed forces will take place and there will be a redeployment of the remaining Israeli forces into specified security locations."

              We decided early during the Camp David talks that it would be impossible to resolve the question of sovereignty over East Jerusalem, but proposed the following paragraph concerning the city, on which we reached full agreement:

              "Jerusalem, the city of peace, is holy to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and all peoples must have free access to it and enjoy the free exercise of worship and the right to visit and transit to the holy places without distinction or discrimination. The holy places of each faith will be under the administration and control of their representatives. A municipal council representative of the inhabitants of the city shall supervise essential functions in the city such as public utilities, public transportation, and tourism and shall ensure that each community can maintain its own cultural and educational institutions."

              At the last minute, however, after several days of unanimous acceptance, both Sadat and Begin agreed that there were already enough controversial elements in the accords and requested that this paragraph, although still supported by both sides, be deleted from the final text. Instead, the two leaders exchanged letters, expressing the legal positions of their respective governments regarding the status of East Jerusalem. They disagreed about sovereignty, of course, but affirmed that the city should be undivided.

              As agreed, I informed them that "the position of the United States on Jerusalem remains as stated by Ambassador Arthur Goldberg in the United Nations General Assembly on July 14, 1967, and subsequently by Ambassador Charles Yost in the United Nations Security Council on July 1, 1969." In effect, these statements considered East Jerusalem to be part of the occupied territories, along with the West Bank and Gaza.

              The Camp David Accord was signed by all three of us leaders with great fanfare and enthusiasm. President Sadat and Prime Minister Begin embraced warmly at the White House ceremony, and the final document was overwhelmingly ratified by their respective parliaments.

              With the inauguration of President Ronald Reagan, there was a period of relative inactivity in the Middle East, except for the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and the subsequent expulsion of PLO forces from Beirut. President Reagan used the announcement of this event on Sept. 1, 1982, to address the nation on the subject of the West Bank and the Palestinians. He stated clearly that "the Camp David agreement remains the foundation of our policy," and his speech included the following declarations:

              "The Palestinian inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza will have full autonomy over their own affairs."
              "The United States will not support the use of any additional land for the purpose of settlements during the transition period. Indeed, the immediate adoption of a settlement freeze by Israel, more than any other action, could create the confidence needed for wider participation in these talks. Further settlement activity is in no way necessary for the security of Israel and only diminishes the confidence of the Arabs that a final outcome can be freely and fairly negotiated."

              In 1991 there was a major confrontation between the governments of Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir and President George Bush concerning Israeli settlements in the West Bank, with U.S. threats of withholding financial aid if settlement activity continued. A conference was convened that year in Madrid with participants of the United States, Syria, other Arab nations and some Palestinians who did not officially represent the PLO. At a press conference on Nov. 1, Secretary of State James Baker said, "When we negotiated with Israel, we negotiated on the basis of land for peace, on the basis of total withdrawal from territory in exchange for peaceful relations. . . . This is exactly our position, and we wish it to be applied also in the negotiations between Israelis and Syrians, Israelis and Palestinians. We have not changed our position at all."

              Norwegian mediators forged an agreement in September 1993 between Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Arafat committing both sides to a staged peace process. Although U.S. officials were not involved in this effort, our government commemorated the Oslo Accords in a ceremony at the White House, and built subsequent peace talks on its terms and those of the Camp David Accords. So far, these efforts have not succeeded, and this year there has been a resurgence of violence and animosity between Israelis and Arabs unequaled in more than a quarter of a century.

              The major issues still to be resolved remain unchanged: the final boundaries of the state of Israel, the return of, or compensation for, Palestinians dislodged from their previous homes and the status of Jerusalem. It seems almost inevitable that the United States will initiate new peace efforts, but it is unlikely that real progress can be made on any of these issues as long as Israel insists on its settlement policy, illegal under international laws that are supported by the United States and all other nations.

              There are many questions as we continue to seek an end to violence in the Middle East, but there is no way to escape the vital one: Land or peace?

              Former President Carter is chairman of the Carter Center in Atlanta.

              Sunday , 26 November 2000

              Comment


              • #8
                idiot

                Wow Carter's opinion means so much. What a great presidency he had. He had us in such bad shape it was unbelievable. The gas lines around the block, the prices because he was to ball-less to stand for our interest. The U.S. hostages. Oh and then a real man, Ronald Reagan, came into office and somehow the Arabs learned how to behave and deal fairly. Wake up kid.

                Comment


                • #9
                  It's very simple;

                  1) There is no "status of Jerusalem" question; it is Israeli and the Arabs have no claim to it. They built one Mosque on our land a few hundred years ago, and all of the sudden its an important holy site to them. What a load of bullshit. I guess the spot where the World Trade Center used to be is also a 'holy site' now, and they want New York as their capitol.

                  2) All the 'occupied territories' are small pieces of land from which not only constant terrorist attacks eminate, but also entire wars were launched.


                  Imagine if there was a 30 mile section of the US border with Mexico, where Mexican terrorists had training camps and executed attacks against the U.S. (they want New Mexico back). Now imagine that these same tracks of land were also used as the staging area for all the countries of Central and South America to attack the U.S. with full scale assualts....3 times. Now imagine these same people on these same strips of land were using artillery to pound cities and towns in New Mexico and Arizona.....how would the U.S. respond?

                  I think the Israelis have shown tremendous restraint.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Qkfx

                    Former President Carter was not giving his opinion, but rather stating the facts. Wake up pops.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      King of the idiots

                      Ok once again you show just how thick your skull is. Carter's little article was entriely his opinion on the situation and how to deal with it. Considering his complete failure in dealing with the middle east I will print his article and wipe my ass with it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        problems

                        qkfx, the us as far as ive seen doesnt discriminate its quite a melting pot so if someone asks well why is this state always at war then its a legitimate question many isrealites were given the priviledge to reside in the great country that is the us and do business in a relatively safe environment i think the middle east could learn a lot from the us i mean their neighbour to the north here in canada where i reside is practically helpless in military terms and weve never had a problem .. the americas are so vast and rich maybe weve got something that they could learn why cant the middle east put away their differences. their people should learn farming instead of war.canada was a frozen waste land 300 years ago its been voted many times since by the un as the best place to live in the world. isreal has been around since the dawn of time and it still cant get it right ill say this you cant go into the home of the heavyweight champion of the world beat up his kids and kill his wife and then have your wife and kids stop him at the door when he comes for you ... the americans are about growth and education and no one should threaten their survival. its not about an eye for a eye its about us shaking the tree hard enough to get the bad apples and if the tree is too stupid to let go then its too bad for the tree so enough of this explaining the behavior of the middle east and how they were hard done by..our men, wives and babies in the world trade centre they were minding their business... its like that chinese proverb the nail that sticks out is the one that gets pounded down ..peace brother...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          qfx,
                          Carter wasn't the most effective President but he did much to bring and forward peace in that region. I remember Sadat making peace with the Israelis. In fact his "opinion" was rather to the point.

                          Social engineering? When the Irish came here and had to compete with blacks for jobs, some formed gangs to beat them up so they could get jobs while white police looked the other way.
                          Ain't nothing wrong with being a liberal nor a conservative.

                          But I sure ain't gonna wait behind anyone because they got the system rigged their way. I believe in competition. Just don't rig the system against me. Unions came about for a certain reason.

                          Your Crash Course in Middle East History was pretty good but I hate to tell you but jews that settled in what became Modern Israel is a bit silly if you play Devil's Advocate where I claim I am an American Indian and my great granddad used to have a tee pee where your house resides on and you ought to give it to me.

                          That's the Zionist argument that Jewish history allows them to take over Jerusalem and create a nation for jews by jews after World War 2. It stemmed from the aftermath of the Holocaust.

                          Just my take on things. Good comments though.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            ok

                            The point alot of you guys are missing is that The jews have always had a presence their and ealso the palestentians never claimed it fot their own. Bottom line, it's always been the jews, never the palestenians.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              We could debate on who is the rightful heir until cows come home, or until FCC gets back from the Center for Democracy and Religious Tolerence in Beijing, whichever comes first.

                              I think the important part is, as Qkfx pointed out, that the Palestinians, and Muslims, and Jews, and Christians and Hindus are all very welcome in the State of Isreal, provided they follow the laws.

                              I have never read any documentation or heard any statements stating that the entire existence of Isreal is to exterminate other religions and those who practice them.

                              I am sure that the Isrealies have made many, many mistakes. It is easy to sit behind this computer terminal and list "fact" after "fact" in a meaningless debate about which side is right or wrong and who has claim to what.

                              The past is the past. Me must learn from it and not repeat it. But when past issues start springing up we have to deal with them effectively.

                              It would seem that the government of Isreal has made some good efforts towards trying to live with others. I truly believe that the poor Palestinian people are between a Rock (Isreal) and a hard place ( the multitude of indifferent muslim nations who would like nothing short of the End of Isreal and could really care less about the Palestinian people).


                              As long as every Arabic nation stands to gain by the instability of the region and the destruction of Isreal, will there ever be peace in the region?

                              Depending on your view of when the world was created, man has been killing man since the dawn of men. We are genetically coded for self-preservation. Very often this is brought about by violent means.

                              Do you think that all the good will and flowery words and joint resolutions by talking heads is ever, EVER going to stop this?

                              The Isrealies are prepositioned to shoot first and ask questions later. They are not thinking about right or wrong, they are not thinking about anything but self-preservation.


                              If you don't like what they are doing, if you think there is a better way to make peace, then I am sure they would welcome you with open arms. I am sure they all would.

                              Flying Clock Choke, you have some decent ideas. You cannot deliver a single sentence of that information without alienating half the world, but the ideas are nonetheless noble.

                              So instead of ranting and raving about how everyone else is doing the wrong thing, why don't you go get involved and make everything alright. Diplomacy first right? Go get 'em kid. You've got my support. And if you need help with Airfare to Palestine, then I am sure we can all chip in and help.

                              Violence begets violence? This is true. But the only hope for peace is the threat of violence.

                              If you are truly seeking truth, the internet is not the place to do it.

                              Time to put your money where your mouth is?

                              SZ

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