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Its seems that another Muay Thai vs Sanshou match has happened and the Sanshou guys won 5-2. Anyone with more info?
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article from a kung fu guy's website...
On the night of 23rd of September (last Sunday), at the foot of Bak Wan San (White Cloud Hill) where Master Wong Fei Hong was buried, wave upon wave of thunderous cheering had shaken the entire New Guangzhou Stadium in Canton. In a 7 match Sanda Vs Muaythai Pro Challenge there, the Chinese fighters have convincingly defeated the Thais with a glorious 5 : 2 victory. The action that have taken place on that fateful night way surpassed that of the previous Sep 8th Challenge. This time we saw the Muaythai champions using everything they could - punches, kicks, elbows (padded), knees & clinches, beating up many of the Chinese badly; yet in the end Sanda prevailed. Though there was bias & unfair judging from some of the Chinese judges, it could not take much away from the solid result that the Sanda fighters have achieved. If the victory of the previous challenge is shaky & not to be recognized by the world of MA, then the MA world will have no choice but to acknowledge this current victory after they see this hard fought battle. Muay Thai is no longer the ultimate ring sport.
The 1st bout is the 52kg category fight between Xu Ding & Rakseelah Chunpadoo, which started out badly for the Chinese. Xu could not get his throws which worked in previous fights to work against the Thai. In the 4th round Rakseelah landed a solid left knee kick in the right chest of Xu, completely knocking the spirit out of him. I think his ribs may have been fractured. The Chinese coach had to immediately throw in the towel, effecting an initial TKO for the Thai team.
The 2nd bout is the 56kg category fight between Zhao Bo & Sinlabathai Jorjeeying, by far the most unfair fight of the evening. Although the Thai could not knock down Zhao, he was obviously the superior fighter, sucessfully landed 2 elbow strikes on his opponent. By the end of the 5 rounds Sinlabathai had whacked Zhao so hard that his skin was splitted above the left eye-lid.. leaving him dazed & hardly able to stand properly. While Zhao did land many side kicks on his opponent they did not hurt the Thai at all. Yet some of those unethical Chinese judges still gave this match to Zhao, drawing fire from the Thai judges & officials later.
The 3rd bout is the 60kg category fight between Liu Zedong & Songkong Jeenukoon, who were quite equally matched. All it took for the Chinese to win was a few ineffective side kicks & throws. In a 50-50 fight like this it is inevitable the visitor will surely lose by points to the host. Nothing short of a knock down will suffice for a Thai win. At this point, some of the Thai spectators walked out of the stadium, feeling disgusted no doubt.
The 4th bout is another 60kg category female fight between Wang Zanli & Yorying Seewoopeun. Wang is a head taller than Yorying.. I wonder how they could be of equal weight. As expected the Thai lass is knocked & thrown about by Wang throughout the fight, letting her winning decisively for the Chinese team.
The 5th bout is the 65kg category fight between Yu Dawei & Tiapalee Pathawachai, a seasoned champion with a record of 80 wins out of 88 fights. Yu could not throw the Thai at all - he came well prepared. On the other hand he was hit so many times by Tiaplee's firece elbow/knee combos that the Chinese coach, fearing for Yu's safety, had to throw in the towel in the 4th round. Another TKO for the Thais, bring the result to 3 : 2.
The 6th bout is the 70kg category fight between Hu Tao & Chavalit Jorjeeying, perhaps the toughest fight that evening. In the first 4 rounds both fighters had won 2 each. Hu has strong techniques but he could not gain any upper hand from the Thai. It is until the final round that he went totally defensive, countering Chavalit's attacks with side kicks whenever he could. Of course, they could not hurt the Thai, but Hu had already gained a marginal win by points through his tactic. The Thai judges were also caught being bias in this bout, for they had given ridiculously high points to Chavalit when he was obviously on the defensive during 2 of the 5 rounds. So in the end this 50-50 fight had to be forfeited to the host, which sealed the visiting team's fate.
The 7th & final bout is the 75kg category fight between Liu Hailong, last year's King of Sanda & Lukpoei Grabangkoei, which was the climax of the whole Challenge. Indeed Liu showed mastery worthy of a King. Right in the beginning of the 1st round he landed a high round kick in Lukpoei's head, & without stopping he grabbed his 75kg opponent, lifted him high up & thrown him out of the ring into the concrete! Screams of pure exhilaration rang through the entire stadium. Following that, Liu landed another solid punch right in his opponent's face after feigning with a low kick, sending Lukpoei reeling. By the end of the 2nd round he was already bleeding all over his face. Yet the Thai insisted on continuing the fight. Muaythai's fighting spirit was truly admirable, & the spectators could not help but respect this fighter. Silence filled the stadium as everyone watched this engrossing battle of skill vs toughness. Liu agained lifted & threw the Thai out of the ring with a back body drop. That's not all; he later splitted open his face with a spining backfist. It is all the Thai can do to prevent himself from being knocked out. At the end of the bout an ambulance had to send Lukpoei immediately to the hospital to treat his incessant bleeding, a result of several solid blows to his face. When Liu made his hero's exit, the Chinese spectators, no longer able to control their jubilation, surrounded & lifted him high above their heads, roaring,"China Team, Victory!!" The Thai spectators (including a former Thai Premier who is there to support), however, are visibly shocked & left speechless in the aftermath of this great battle. The Thai coach was glum & refused to answer any questions when approached by eager reporters on his way back to the locker rooms. Several Bangkok TV stations also broadcasted this Challenge live in Thailand. I cannot begin to imagine the effect of this defeat on the millions of Muaythai fans back home.. afterall, everyone believed Muaythai to be invincible in the ring - until tonight.
If there is something Sanda has proven to be superior over Muaythai in this Challenge, I have to say it is technique & maneuverablity. According to the Chinese Coach Guan Jianming, after the 9th National Wushu Meet he had only 18 days to train up this Sanda team. Knowing that he could not bring the fighters to match the striking power & conditioning of Muaythai, he had to emphasize instead on distancing, footwork & rhythmn. He believed that fast movement in & out of Muaythai's destructive range could reduce the damage that the Sanda fighters would take. After testing out this strategy in the Challenge, we could see that it worked quite well against the Thais. Of course, most of them still took a lot of damage, but if not for their mobility they would surely have been knocked out. Compared to Sanda, Muaythai apppeared too straightfoward & monotonous, relying only on fierce hard strikes & blocks to destroy an opponent. But this is also where the strength of Muaythai lies. Sanda tactics, following the principles of Chinese Martial Science, avoids the opponent's strength & attack its weakness, countering the hard with the yielding, & borrows power to overcome power. All these could not be achieved without intellect & determination. It is true that Sanda techniques do appear quicker & more nimble than Muaythai, but they are definitely not as effective. Although the Thais have lost, on the whole they still demonstrated greater stamina, conditioning & striking power than the Chinese. Other than the 2 bouts where Sanda won decisively, the other 3 victories are somewhat questionable; especially the 2nd bout between Zhao Bo & Sinlabathai. In those 50-50 bouts, all the Chinese fighters were out of breath, injured & dazed, but the Thais were not even breathing heavily & appeared almost totally unscathed. What does this tell you about Sanda? In the next Challenge at Bangkok, there is no doubt that the tables will be turned on the Chinese - it will be the Thais who win 5 : 2 instead! In the 2 bouts the Thais won by TKO, it was clear for us see the effectiveness of Muaythai elbow/knee combos. Because Sanda is totally lacking in the trapping(close) range, the fighters will turn to putty if they are somehow cornered & unable to run around to avoid damage. Muaythai may no longer be the supreme ring sport, but it is still the best striking art in the MA world. If Sanda is too keep its newly gained position as the king of the ring, it must therefore humbly learn from the superior stamina, conditioning & striking power training of Muaythai. Sanda has enriched Chinese Martial Science through its series of successes, but it must not think it is greater than CMS itself. Sanda needs to continue to draw from Chinese Martial Science to maintain its technical versatility over Muaythai, & not wishfully hope to win others by simply being more agile. To conclude, I must salute the King of Sanda heroes. What they have proved that night will be remembered for many generations to come. If there was a time MA people said Kungfu is useless, only for show etc, now I think nobody dare to make such degrading remarks anymore, thanks to these Sanda fighters. The Thais, shocked as they are, will of course not take this defeat lying down. They await their revenge back in Bangkok. The real Kungfu VS Muaythai battle has only just begun! -
lol, oh my god, this was pretty badComment
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just more propoganda
This is just more propoganda from the Chinese Wushu Association.
I'm willing to bet one trillion bajillion dollars that no knees were allowed to the opponents head... and that the fights were strictly under SANDA RULES or MODIFIED SANDA RULES.
In MUY THAI, if I'm not mistaken, you're not allowed to go for single-legs, etc... but in SANDA you are... and in fact, one is encouraged to throw, because you get more points than strikes and kicks... but you don't receive points (or perhaps receive less points) for throws in MUY THAI. Because SANDA rules are different, they are encouraged to seek throws more... The rules for these CHINA vs whatever bouts are usually set up so that the opposing team doesn't have a chance to win. There was a SANDA vs BOXING where the boxers were has-been washed up shits that couldn't kick or throw... The SANDA dudes just came in and kicked all the boxers in the legs and than threw them... The boxers didn't know how to defend against them because they didn't train for that... Besides, the boxers were NOT allowed to kick or throw themselves... So of course SANDA won. IS SANDA better than boxing... according to the results of the contest, it sure is...
So it's like having a striker fighting a wrestler under wrestling rules... SANDA guys can just throw their opponents all night, especially if they don't have to worry about getting knees to the head...
Let people keep learning SANDA... Not all of it is worthless, and I'm sure some of the clinching throws are quite useful in a real situation... But understand how the contests and rules are setup before passing judgement on what ART is better... Most people who post those articles are not posting the whole picture.Comment
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I agree...
There is no questioning the fact that San Da has come a long way and that it is definitely a new presence to be reckoned with, but at the same time the dirty and misleading propaganda that the Chinese put out there just makes me want to puke.
As a muay thai fighter, I was ready to take my hat off to the Chinese fighters when I first heard the news of their victories over muay thai. I respect anything that wins. But then after reading the fight descriptions from several sources it became obvious to me that the thai boxers were often beating the san da guys senseless. But due to unfair judging, the ridiculous San Da point system, and perhaps a couple mismatches, the Chinese were able to fabricate victories for themselves. I don't blame the thai audiences for the leaving the arena disgusted. I hope the Chinese learn that the more they do crap like this, the less credibility they will receive in the world of fighting sports. Nevertheless, I respect San Shou/San Da and believe it to be a sport that has definite potential. It's definitely a step up for the kung fu people (despite the fact that many San Shou fighters don't even practice kung fu).Comment
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reasons...
i think a large reason for the results are because the chinese are trying to "sell" san da to the chinese public at large. many chinese don't even know what it is... the promoters call it kung fu in order to get the locals hyped-up about KUNG FU... because it is understand in China that a KUNG FU fight is NO HOLDS BARRED, and that any and all techniques can be used. Chinese are just as confused about the rules, etc... of SANDA as many foreigners.
But when they hear KUNG FU, they think of Shaolin Temple monks going off and not a bunch of rules...
Once the Chinese general public becomes aware and has "accepted" SANDA as a legitimate sport, then we're going to see much better matchups / fights / promoters / events / officiating / etc...Comment
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damn
So lame how the Chinese have to do this...pretty typical though...
Their point system is kinda weird too...
This sport has alot of potential and is the closest thing they have to MMA...maybe someday people there will start training it!
When I left Hong Kong for LA...people there were really getting into the king of sanda tournament....hopefully there will be some more sanda gyms opening up in HK when I get back...I'd definately like to train in this....Comment
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just a quick question
sanda = san shou, correct?Comment
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Let them fight kickboxers at a k-1 event under predesignated rules and (relatively) impartial, non-Chinese judges. It'd be a joke.Comment
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oh man I'd love to see them fight K-1 guys,,,,,even the worst guys would kick their asses!
from what I've seen.....the Sanda guys have VERY poor striking skills...even their so called "champions" from the king of sanda show...pretty bad....Comment
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A guy like Andy (if he were still alive), Bernardo, Filho, LeBanner, Greco, Hoost, Aerts, Crocop, etc... would peel thru any sanshou fighter on the planet under any rules. My old kyokushin/kickboxing teacher (who was world class) kicked my ass regularly and he beat up on two weight divisions of san shou guys in one night at a Canadian San Shou tournament (under san shou rules). And he told me that even he wouldn't last 30 seconds with any of those top k-1 guys.Comment
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san da = san shou
the "sport" of sanda has only been around for 20-25 years, unlike MT, which has been practiced and passed on for hundreds of years...
chinese martial arts, as a whole, has pretty much deteriorated in china, including the shaolin temple. i'm sure at one time, generations ago, shaolin temple was a breeding ground for hardcore martial artists, but even monks need to eat. with the outbreak of wars and other factors... kung fu as a whole started to die. there still are masters left, but they don't teach at the Shaolin temple. these masters are hard to find and don't have schools, and are old and they are a dying breed. all the bullshit at the shaolin temple nowadays is just that... BULLSHIT... Hardcore chinese gong fu guys in mainland china will tell you the same thing. the only gong fu that the shaolin temple is interested in practicing is the art of making money.
another aspect of chinese culture many don't understand is that Chinese are especially "protective" about their "skills", in that masters typically ONLY taught their skills to their sons or closest of disciples. There weren't schools you could pay to train at back in the day. Chinese people don't share their techniques or will share "outdated" techniques because they don't want you to learn the real deal, for fear of you turning around and using it against them (much like the brazilians when they first came to the USA). Which is why you have so many f'ucking different styles in Chinese martial arts, because they all represent their own school or clan with their own distinct style... But, Kung Fu is just that... NO-HOLDS-BARRED... any and all techniques can be used... but because Chinese didn't spread or teach their Kung Fu to outsiders (including other Chinese), there was never any sort of organized NATIONAL forum for the development of KUNG FU, unlike Muy Thai, which is pretty much just stand-up NHB fighting.Comment
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San Shou has potential, but it needs more time to grow and evolve. Hell, when you talk about the top San Shou fighters in the USA, you still don't have a very wide pool of athletes to choose from. There is only a small handful of gyms here that consistently train San Shou competitors on a serious level. I expect the same is true in other countries. I'm sure that China is about ready to explode with San Shou gyms, but the Chinese San Shou method is IMHO, a weaker fighting strategy than some of the other countries (ironic considering that the Chinese created it). The Chinese fighters are notorious for having lousy boxing skills and are almost always dependent upon setting up throws (no KO power). Certain fighters from other countries such as the U.S. actually have good kickboxing skills and can knock people out (but I doubt they have anyone who can trade firepower with a good K-1 guy).Comment
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How many times do the Sanshou guys from China have to beat Muay Thai guys to realize that:
1. They cannot beat them without cheating
2. They cannot come close to winning except by using watered down muay thai stolen from video's
3. kung fu is no good but for dancing
4. haha you all are suckers that wanna believe those first 3.
I have to give props to Lkfdmc on mixedmartialarts.com kickboxing section here's some info I lifted from him:
1. The World Muay Thai Association? chose the fighters(including 1 current LUmpinee champ and 1 former)
2. Two judges were chinese, two judges were thai and one neutral
3. elbows and knee's were indeed allowed and points granted for
4. Muay Thai judges favor knee's, from what I've heard you can hit 10 good rights and get 1 point awarded and get 1 grazing knee and get a point for it. STicking and moving is frowned up.
5-10 I cannot think of now, if you want a real discussion go to the prementioned website as I'm not so informed as others. Man I cannot wait to see video of this if it ever comes out to come to first hand conclusions.Comment
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1. Flyingclock choke now officially owes me one trillion bajillion dollars since knees and elbows to the head were 100% LEGAL in this event
2. Many of the comments posted here have been quite amusing because you guys are so mis informed. Last years K-1 elimination tournament had 2 San Da fighters in the Asian tournament, they BOTH advanced to the semi finals, beating some top K-1 talent along the way
3. "after reading the fight descriptions from several sources it became obvious to me that the thai boxers were often beating the san da guys senseless. But due to unfair judging, the ridiculous San Da point system, and perhaps a couple mismatches, the Chinese were able to fabricate victories for themselves. "
Crane69 is a notorious Muay Thai jock rider so the account he posted is questionable. I tore into it on www.axkickboxing.com and don't feel like retyping the whole thing so you can just go there if you want to see me tear it apart point by point
"ridiculous San Da point system" comes from someone who obviously doesn't know the point sytem
punches and elbows = 1 point
leg kicks = 1 point
kick or knee above the waist = 2 points
throws = 2 points
pretty fair, unbaised system that the Thai's could compete under, problem is they had A LOT of trouble with the side kicks, with getting close and with landing their stuff. In such occassions, you generally don't win. Sorry guys, you don't just win because you are Muay Thai
"unfair judging" = 2 Chinese, 2 Thai, one European...
Love it when the zombies can't accept their favorite style lostComment
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