Bruce Lee vs. UFC lightweight division

[Tony10]

I love when people start bashing Bruce Lee as nothing more than an actor. What a joke.

The idea that he was simply an actor with a few revolutionary ideas is ridiculous. However, the idea that he was this invincible, mythical presence who could defeat anybody is of course absurd as well.

The answer surely lies somewhere in the middle.

Calling JKD just his "system" when everybody has their own "system" now is preposterous. The man opened the eyes of the martial arts world and--many forget--made MA popular in America. All of his philosophies still stand today. Like The Art of War, solid ideas are timeless.

As for his ability, I'll rely on those famous martial artists of the time who speak of his skill: Inosanto, Norris, Lewis... countless others, rather than the couch quarterbacks here.

As for the assertion that he merely fought staged sparring matches with willing stooges... wrong. Bruce was constantly challenged in the outside world and never lost. That doesn't make him unbeatable, but to imply he's a fraud or a wannabe just contradicts oral and written history.

As for not "competing," who gives a sh*t? I don't know how long some of you have been doing this, but there's a world of difference between developing to fight in the street and scoring in some point match. Guess which one he was more interested in? BTW, the grappling thing is silly. He didn't have what we all now know to be vital grappling skills because that knowledge, too, came about only recently because of some like-minded revolutionaries: the Gracies.

Were he alive today, he'd be all over BJJ. How do I know this? Look at Inosanto.

The fantasy matchups are just that (Hey! Who would win? Bruce or Tito?)--pure speculation. Who knows what level he'd be at were he still alive or had been the same age during these times? Who cares? He brought us a gift, either use it or don't. But trying to bash him just reminds me of people who say Rickson sucks because he hasn't fought somebody "real" in years... hey: do you want to see somebody "win" or do you want to accept the knowledge they have to pass on to you? One's temporary, one's forever.

[mild7]

now hold on a sec...

while I certainly do feel that Bruce is one of the most overrated and butt-kissed martial artists in history, it has to be said, as I said before, he is a martial arts pioneer. But compared to the modern fighters of today, and with what he was doing back then, I still say he would'nt stand much of a chance. But I do feel had Bruce been alive his whole way of fighting would have changed; towards the end of his life(correct me if I'm wrong here) Bruce was beginning to discard trapping and the use of a power/dominant side as these things don't work well in reality. They may work well in ITF TKD but that's it. I believe that if Bruce had gone on to spar with better and more aggressive opponents, he would have realised even more things, such as the sidekick being more of a push than anything else. he would have picked up grappling, and just gone on to develop even more.

Would he have then been the best NHB lightweight? I still don't know. He was talented, physically, but whether he has the heart of a sportsman I still don't. Some ppl just don't do well when the pressure is on... this is something we will never know. It is one thing to beat up on students, poor streetfighters, but a totally different animal to walk into the ring against a highly skilled and psyched opponent.

I don't care too much about what Norris or Lewis may have said about Bruce. Quite frankly, it is one thing to say something about a man when he is dead, an another when he is still alive and perceived a a threat. Bruce never did spar with Norris or Lewis fullcontact, if he did I believe Lewis would have ripped him a new asshole, Lewis is a fighter and won't back down until it's over. This is my belief.

To say that Bruce did'nt want to compete as he was'nt interested in points-competition; bollocks. Fullcontact karate was around during Bruce's time. If he wanted to compete in something fullcontact with kicks in it he could have followed in Joe Lewis' footsteps. Except for the lowkicks almost all of the primary arsenal of Jun Fan gungfu can be used in this kind of competition. There is no excuse, there should be no excuse.

So let's conclude this, Bruce was a physically strong man with a lot of theories on martial arts, had supposedly won a few streetscraps and was good at showing off.
This is essentially what Bruce was. So what? There are a thousand guys like this today. A mere pioneer is what Bruce will always be remembered for as far as I'm concerned. But as the greatest martial artist of all time; he is undeserving of this title, not even close.

[Tony10]

Well Joe Lewis obviously thought enough of him to train under him for some time.

Who's talking about "Greatest Martial Artist of All Time"? I certainly don't think Lee himself ever claimed that nor would he ever entertain that idea, because there is no such thing.

As far as the competition thing, again: how does a guy prove in the ring that's he's a great streetfighter? Let's reverse your argument: let's say he goes in with Norris or, say, Bill Wallace and gets beat under whatever rules. Then he meets the same guy some other time in the street with no rules (which is what he trained for)... would the outcome be the same? Who knows, but I doubt it.

As for Lewis saying something different now that he's dead... well, I have yet to read/here any reliable accounts of these guys griping about him while he was alive. You think what wouldn't have gotten out?

This is such a circular argument because the man is gone and to compare him to the fighters of today is like comparing a WWII fighter to an F-16 and saying, for instance, the Corsair sucked. Well, it didn't at that time.

I'll give you that there's no such thing as a "best martial artist" title, as the UFC and Pride prove every year... but to say there's 1000 guys like Bruce around today is absurd. Where are all their revolutionary ideas?

He is to martial arts what Einstein is to physics. He wasn't the only one, but one of very few and certainly the most visible. Maybe somebody else would've had the same revelation--also possible--but he got it out there first so he gets the credit.

I think because cross-training is so prevalent now people tend to think it was widely practiced before Lee. Look at it this way: did you even know what BJJ was before Royce Gracie came around? I'm sure some here did but for the most part either you didn't know about it or you thought you couldn't be taken down unwillingly or that you could KO your attacker--LOL--before something like that happened.

Now nobody who's not out of their mind doesn't incorporate grappling into their training. Were the Gracies the only advocates of grappling prior? Of course not. Were they the best fighters ever, with their grappling skills? We know now that all are beatable. But they made their point, as did Bruce.

Genius involves, a lot of the time, revealing the seemingly obvious. If there's a 1000 guys around like that today (I doubt it), they think that way because people like Lee laid the groundwork. Period.

But in the end, since Bruce didn't compete, you're right: we have no way of knowing how he stacked up in his day (at least some idea). Agreed.

[bobby_steeles]

allow me to set the record straight!

i once saw a bruce lee movie where he fought this guy with a long white beard plus 5 ninjas. i don't know about you, but there are no ninjas or guys with long white beards in the ufc! (scott morris doesn't count--no mask!)

you CAN NOT say that bruce would be able to beat up anyone today, but you caaaaan say that everyone would be able to beat up bruce back then! got it?

fact: rodney can beat up bruce lee. who is rodney you ask? he was the bully of my third grade class. he used to whip my ass when i was little, and he used to whip other people's asses too. did anyone in my third grade see bruce lee whip anybody's ass? nope. winner--rodney!

plus, bruce was around before i was born, so he must suck!

but then again, if you listen to everything you read on message boards, everyone sucks!

how do i know all of this is true? because i wrote in on the internet!

[Szczepankiewicz]

Yeeeeeessssssss , but did you see it on TV?

[Frogman]

I think the Big Show would kick everyone's ass in the UFC

[Ryu (JKD?)]

LOL at this entire thread

Tony10, some good posts.


Bobby Steeles, there's no such movie where he fought a guy with a white beard and 5 ninjas
What are you smoking?

Ryu

[Twisted up]

Bruce Lee as a fighter--INCREDIBLY over-rated. As a genius and pioneer, you can't say enough about him.

As a fighter, Bruce Lee was (and is) hyped so much, you'd think that the guy was from another world, or super-natural. Neither is the case.

Bruce was human, as such he was a mortal just like that rest of us. That means, he could have been beat. He was just another human being guys. Sure he might have been skilled. The troubling thing about Bruce Lee is that there is no record of him fighting all that much (sure, we all hear about some "stories" of his street-fights. Unfortunately, we weren't there to see them and can only base what we know upon here-say).

There are no accounts of him fighting TOP-LEVEL fighters and beating them with consistency. In other words, he would have won some and, lost some. Just like everyone else.

[sidder]

I still say that if Hulkamania were still running wild, ol' Brucey wouldn't stand a chance against him. I think that the chick from Karate Kid Part 3 would probably take Bruce down 3 times outta 4.

[Bruce_Fan]

So many experts...

Hey Frogman,

If you are interested in the Life of Bruce, read some of his work and philosophies on the Martial Arts.

There are also some great books compiled by John Little.
If you like, you can also read accounts of people who knew him such as Dan Inosanto, Larry Hartsell, Joe Lewis, etc......


Read and learn and form your own opinion.
That is if you are truly interested in learning about Bruce and what he was discovering.

Otherwise, don't waste your time asking a bunch of know-it-alls sitting behind their PCs.

By the way, TONY10, you made some really good point.

Take care

[Twisted up]

Yeah Frogman, do what Bruce Fan said. After all, that's what some of what we "know it alls behind our PCs" did.

[mild7]

I've read almost every book written by/about Bruce, Tao of JKD, the John Little 'series', fighting method etc etc except for the biography written by his wife as I feel she does'nt do much to realistically capture the essence or life of Lee, I can't believe she even gave her blessings to the movie Dragon.

So it's not like I jumped to a conclusion that Bruce sucked without knowing him.
I'm just pointing out a few facts here that you guys refuse to adknowledge.

Fact 1: Bruce is the most 'cock-talked' about martial artist in history. Ask a guy about Bruce and he'll say, "oh, Burce was so fast, and had the strength of ten men, he could take out Tyson, Holyfield, Vargas all in one night". Bollocks.

Fact 2: Bruce is the most overrated fighter in the history of martial arts. For a man that never sparred fullcontact with top level fighters and never stepped into the ring(unless someone here provides me with solid evidence that he really was a boxing champ in Hong Kong, Cha Cha is the only thing I'm sure he was good at at the time), it is truly amazing that some ppl think he would even do well in modern NHB competition. Joe Lewis, in my opinion, is a far greater fighter than Bruce ever was.

Fact 3: Bruce is the most overrated theorist in the history of martial arts. What exactly is so great about his philosophies and theories that make his fans go on and on, and even say he is the Einstein equivalent of physics??? Pls enlighten me here. If Einstein had not existed, the world of physics would be changed for me, but if Bruce did'nt exist it would'nt bother me at all as far as martial arts are concerned. I don't give two hoots about the 5 ways of attack, interception, longest against shortest, using what works etcetc. In a way, all Bruce did was state the obvious. He just put into words what most fighters(perhaps with the exception of the traiditional community) already know. So pls tell me EXACTLY what is so special about Bruce.

These 3 solid facts are just that, they are the truth about the most mythified individual in martial arts history. Perhaps you guys have just got it all wrong, I know Bruce was your childhood hero and all but you can't refuse to accept the fact that Bruce, was'nt and will never be more than the greatest...... martial arts ACTOR of all time.

[Twisted up]

Mild7: Thanks for a truly excellent post!

We must remember that 30 some years ago, people were completely blinded by "styles" of fighting. While this is true still to some extent today, more people understand as "common sense" what Bruce Lee was trying to get across back then.

Times have changed. It's likely that it would have done so with or WITHOUT Bruce Lee's concepts.

[sidder]

Once again, Mild7, you're right on the money. Look at these little unknown Thai guys (who weigh about the same as Brucey) who fight against other badass Thai guys sometimes on a weekly basis. These guys are fit, hungry, and they train 24-7 and fight against other top notch guys all the time. Though you won't see any of them in Enter the Dragon, they would mop the floor with JKD's golden boy. It's absurd to even assume otherwise. The guy never competed, never fought other top-notch guys full-contact (in public view, anyway), and recapitulated some Taoism for Beginners in his books. Sure I like Bruce. But there's no reason for me to believe that he'd have a chance against a 17 year-old Thai kid. Hell, I wouldn't either. No shame in that.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Damn, guys, who cares?

Bruce was a human being. That's all he wanted to be. He was very strong and very fast, and had some street experience here and there. I have that too. I hope to God people keep talking about me (pro and con) 30 freakin years after I die!
This is what makes this thread so funny! I'm happy for the guy that he's still the center of everyone's cotroversies.

Who the hell cares who he beat or couldn't beat in a fight?
I think the amazing thing about him was that he decided to accomplish all he wanted to, and did it without a doubt. That's the cool thing about his whole story. Not who he could beat.
There's lots of people who accomplish despite hard odds in history.
I like them too.

Ryu