Your thoughts on the death penalty?

[Patterson]

I know this is a very sensitive issue but I believe through having these type of free form debates we can learn alot from each other and hopefully form some type of consensus. To get the conversations rolling I'll throw out some ideas, should minors being tried as adults be up for the death penalty? Is insanity a valid way to avoid the penalty? Should we have this period? Is it a good deterent to crime? A barbaric practice with no place in the modern world? Lets get the ball rolling! I hope to hear all of your comments!

[kid lock]

Minors shouldn't be tried as adults because that same kid wouldn't of been able to buy beer 10 minutes before the crime. A minor is a minor!

[Patterson]

Well Well.

Kid Lock I think what this is about, is responsibility for one's actions. The fact the minor can't buy beer has nothing to do with our discussion. I believe if someone is mature enough to kill other people or attempt to, then they are mature enough to suffer the consequences like an adult. Why do you think minor's deserve special treatment? This just encourages them to do violent acts because they know they can get away with it.

[kid lock]

Patterson, I know the beer has nothing to do with the crime but my point was that a minor shouldn't be tried as an adult if they're still minors. So if an adult is childish and imature should they receive minor disciplining? 21 means 21

[Patterson]

Oh so now your not an adult until your 21? Thats funny. Apparently these immature childish 18 year olds you speak of can die for us in war like adults but cannot be tried like adults!? This is just plain insulting and inflamatory and I will not stand for it! Are you aware that 18 year olds are tried as adults in this country? And as far as people being childish and immature who are you to decide what someone is? Should the judge have a little chat with the defendant before the trial so he can decide if they are "immature and childish" or capable of being tried? If someone over 21 is "immature and childish" should they get special treatment as well? What is age? How old someone is according to our calendar isn't as important timewise as experience, and if these punks have enough experience to kill innocent people then they can be killed. How do you refute this!?

[SweepEm]

Hey Patt: where you been?

Oh, I know, after the US Air Force has been bombing the Taliban and Bin Laden, you finally came out of your cave.

HA!

Now we have an IQ of 149?
did you get a brain transplant?

Oh, if you do have above normal intelligencev you should know to capitolize IQ not iq.
I see at least you're using the spell checker........

heh heh

[jbkenpo]

I'm not a big fan of trying minors as adults. They are children and obviously aren't mature enough to do the right thing. Of course that's speaking as a non-victim.

Let my family be affected and I'll probably be saying,"hang'em high"

Go figure, jb

[Patterson]

Hi Sweep.

I'm not using any spellchecker sweep. My spelling was never that bad, people just exagerated. Yes sweepem, I was waiting to flee to Holland but it seems no large ground attack will be launched so I'm still here for now. Perhaps if you would sit back, and listen to what I say, you would recognize my brilliance and see that I have always been a genius. If you still don't see this, then it is probably because you are not intelligent enough to understand. But am I going to live at your house this summer or what? I look forward to rolling with Hura and that Ray Diogo guy or whatever.
And JBKenpo, I must disagree with minors not being mature enough to do the right thing. Somehow I came out of those formidable years without murdering anyone, and I wasn't especially mature. It is not difficult for children to grasp our societies values and ethics and to understand laws, these are just excuses and cop outs.

[Szczepankiewicz]

I think we must iron out the legal definitions of adult before we get into other parts of the conversation.


In some states you can get a hunting license at age 12.
As it stands now you can operate a vehicle at 16 (some places younger).
You cannot vote or own a hunting rifle until you are 18. Yet you can be imprisoned as an adult, be drafted, go to war and die...
You cannot buy tobacco until your 19.
You cannot own a pistol, drink alcohol, or gamble until you are 21.
You cannot rent a car until you are 25.


At what point in life do you legally become an adult? People speak of maturity and responsibility, and I agree that these traits can probably only be determined on a case by case basis. But in a rights based government, the most convenient way of determining the ability of a person to act responsibly, on a general scale, is determined by age. The validity of this position is arguable, to say the least.

However, if we are to maintain a stable government and a productive economy, the rule of law must be consistant across the nation. How can we proceed with such inconsistancy in the rule of law on this issue?

[jbkenpo]

Re: Hi Sweep.

Originally posted by Patterson
I'm not using any spellchecker sweep. My spelling was never that bad, people just exagerated. Yes sweepem, I was waiting to flee to Holland but it seems no large ground attack will be launched so I'm still here for now. Perhaps if you would sit back, and listen to what I say, you would recognize my brilliance and see that I have always been a genius. If you still don't see this, then it is probably because you are not intelligent enough to understand. But am I going to live at your house this summer or what? I look forward to rolling with Hura and that Ray Diogo guy or whatever.
And JBKenpo, I must disagree with minors not being mature enough to do the right thing. Somehow I came out of those formidable years without murdering anyone, and I wasn't especially mature. It is not difficult for children to grasp our societies values and ethics and to understand laws, these are just excuses and cop outs.

Well,

I did the same. I grew up without murdering or hurting or shooting anyone or getting shot. I was also lucky enough to have some role models that kept me out of the drug game, but I saw some that weren't that lucky. I don't know your background, where you grew up, etc...But even if you grew up in an area as bad I did you still might feel that environment plays no role in a persons choices. Lack of a father figure, economic disparities (i.e welfare, no home structure, ragged clothes, mean kids at school, etc...)and the like may be what you consider excuses and cop outs. That's cool, it's your opinion. Also it's a lot easier to say when you haven't experienced it, but that's another topic.

If those "values and ethics" don't exist in the society that you live in I think there is a chance that you may not assign the same level of value to them as others. Of course my degree wasn't in psychology, my wife's was and she always thinks I'm wrong so this could be one more instance.

jb

[jbkenpo]

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
I think we must iron out the legal definitions of adult before we get into other parts of the conversation.


In some states you can get a hunting license at age 12.
As it stands now you can operate a vehicle at 16 (some places younger).
You cannot vote or own a hunting rifle until you are 18. Yet you can be imprisoned as an adult, be drafted, go to war and die...
You cannot buy tobacco until your 19.
You cannot own a pistol, drink alcohol, or gamble until you are 21.
You cannot rent a car until you are 25.


At what point in life do you legally become an adult? People speak of maturity and responsibility, and I agree that these traits can probably only be determined on a case by case basis. But in a rights based government, the most convenient way of determining the ability of a person to act responsibly, on a general scale, is determined by age. The validity of this position is arguable, to say the least.

However, if we are to maintain a stable government and a productive economy, the rule of law must be consistant across the nation. How can we proceed with such inconsistancy in the rule of law on this issue?

I think that's why they call it a law "practice"....it far from perfect. What's worse is thinking of a medical "practice"....man I don't want folks practicing on me. I want someone who knows what they're doing

jb

[Szczepankiewicz]

My point was that we need to set a consistant standard for what age you become a responsible adult.

As far as Patterson's original question about Capital Punishment, that's a tougher issue.

The same people who support capital punishment are generally those people who oppose abortion.

And the opposite is true (generally speaking) that those people who are "pro choice" are totally against capital punishment.

To me, an execution is an execution. Life is ending either way. If a person can justify an execution under certain circumstances, then they can eventually explain a different execution under different circumstances.

These viewpoints are all based on a people's collective value system. Living in a predominatly Christian nation you would think that adherence to the commandments would have precedence. I have read multiple copies of the Ten Commandments and I have yet to find the statement "Thou Shalt Not Kill, Unless...." I just can't seem to find it.

On the other hand, natural law demonstrates that death is an integral part of the cycle of life.

Who makes the judgement as to which creatures get to live and which get to die?

Most people will make snap decisions based on their values and principles. Those who support capital punishment should probably be included in the final act. Not as viewers, but as participants. As in firing squads of old. Each person is given a rifle, but instead of only having one bullet for ten rifles, each person has a bullet.

I find it very difficult to respect someone who lives with a relative ethical system. It seems we are surrounded by millions of people who do just that.

SZ

[hounddog]

Looks like patterson has a report on the death penalty due on Friday and hes scramblin for material.

[sccr06]

Well I think that if you can't lock the armbar in try to hook your opponent's leg and sweep into the mount......oh wait......sorry. Wrong thread.

[Patterson]

Kenpo.

JBKenpo so your saying minors shouldn't be tried as adults because they may have grown up in the ghetto with no good role models? Why does this change when they hit 18 then? Do you just believe in no penalty? And common guys stop tiptoeing around, come out and say how you feel about this. Stop talking around the issue.