Choy Lay Fut vs. White Tiger kung fu

[jtheath]

I am planning to begin studying Kung Fu here in the next few months and have narrowed down my list of choices to two styles: Choy Lay Fut and White Tiger. I've heard good things about both of the arts and about the instructors who teach both arts in my area. Whereas White Tiger is an internal style of Kung Fu Choy Lay Fut seems to be both internal and external. I'm looking to improve my speed to complement my kenpo skills and to make me a more effective martial artist. The White Tiger instructors that I have spoken to tell me that the most immediate result that beginning students in their style see is a marked increase in hand and foot speed. On the other hand, Choy Lay Fut is probably the most popular style of Kung Fu and is known for producing good full-contact fighters. I was wondering if anyone out there knew anything about either style and if they would recommend studying one style over the other.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Does either school offer full contact training? Do they mix striking and grappling?

[jtheath]

White Tiger seems to emphasize proper form, control and the building of internal strength over sparring although sparring is practiced. Choy Lay Fut is known for producing good full contact fighters and so I'm sure that sparring is emphasized a bit more than in White Tiger. Both styles have their own form of Chin Na which is the Chinese art of hand seizing and wrist manipulation. This is a precursor to a lot of the grappling arts but is not your Brazilian Jiu itsu take-it-to-the-ground variety of grappling. Both styles seem equally good but I haven't heard as much about White Tiger.

-Jtheath

[Szczepankiewicz]

There is more to Chin Na than wrist maneuvers. However it is not as in depth as Judo or Jiu Jitsu.

If they don't teach a variety of striking and grappling I wouldn't waste my time or money. If they don't train full contact, same deal. Unless of course you are in it for the sport or the leisure activities that are available...

How did you train in Kenpo? Full contact?

I guess you have to answer these questions for yourself. I have hashed through my opinions on other posts. I will try to dig them up and repost them here for your convenience.

[jtheath]

Thanks. I'd appreciate it if you could post those old opinions. We do train full contact in Kenpo but we don't spar in practice as much as as I would like. The main reason for my wanting to study White Tiger is to learn Chi Kung meditation and in the process improve my speed in striking and in moving. Chi Kung is also taught in Choy Lay Fut however and lessons are cheaper. The White Tiger school near my home I believe is the only one in the United States and so they can charge an arm and a leg for lessons. I was just curious to find out if anyone knew any more specifics about the two styles and which is in their opinion the more complete art.

-jtheath

[soho]

Personally I don't think ether type of Kung Fu is your best bet. If you want to be able to fight, and be a good "Martial Artist" there are some specific things you'll probably want to do. Since we're on the BJJ forum we'll start there. You need to be good on the ground. That basically means training BJJ. You need to be able to fight on your feet. That means boxing. You need to be able to fight in the standing grapple. That means Thai style hitting with takedowns and positioning from wrestling, and maybe a little judo (I got thrown on my ass by some good judo guys last week). The question is will ether style of kung Fu train these skills. Somehow I doubt it.

As to the question of Chi Gung, It might be relaxing. Does it have anything to do with fighting? Not bloody likely.

Any place that has you learning forms and doing one and two step sparring is not going to be helpful in my opinion. You may have fun, and that can be a good thing. However in my opinion the real fun is seeing yourself developing real skills, not learning to do a form.

Thanks

[Szczepankiewicz]

Actually, Chi Gung has EVERYTHING to do with fighting.

What is the single most critical property that a fighter can have? Strength, speed, power, skill, stamina? All of these are vital, but self control is the KEY to success.

How often do you use your fighting skills? Once a day, once a week? Monthly? How often do you need to be able to calm your mind? Focus your energy? Listen to your environment and heed what your body, mind and spirit are trying to tell you? Probably multiple times every day (see also Rush Hour Traffic)

Yadda, Yadda, Yadda mysticism and hocus pocus...

I know that you may think that it's all corny, and frankly your probably right. Nothing like watching goofballs sitting in lotus position chanting or some such silliness. But the ability to focus, remain calm, and think clearly in a highly stressful situation is the number ONE ingredient to self-preservation.

Chi Kung (as well as Yoga and other forms of mediation) is extremely helpful when you are trying to master self control.

I don't think the BJJ guys teach this much, at least they don't specifically point to anything like it. However, the confidence that you gain as you train IS in fact a similiar phenomenon. Your mind is calm when you roll in practice, but when you fight your mind and body are raging. The folks who are experienced fighters learn how to overcome this and retain the ability to focus under extreme pressure. All successful athletes learn this. Same with anyone else who undertakes highly stressful activities.

I'm no expert, nor do I claim to be, but check out Tony Blauer et al who have done extensive research into this field.

Chi Kung is not the do all end all by any means, but it is very helpful.

Did you ever notice that your body is ready for flight or fight in an instant? The next time you notice this, try to reverse the process and go from raging blood flow to instant calm. It's not easy, if possible at all..

SZ

[soho]

I think the BJJ point you made is a lot more valid than the Chi Gung point. The more you role the more relaxed you become. Then you go to a tournament and it’s a whole different ball game from rolling in the gym. Depending on your stamina you may hardly be winded after a five-minute match in the gym, but at a tournament your exhausted. After a few tournaments this changes and you become more relaxed when going up against someone else in a competitive setting. Going to tournaments is a great way to mentally prepare yourself for a real life altercation, because tournaments can be so intense.

If you want to be relaxed in a given situation you have to put yourself in that situation a lot. Take boxing, How do you develop composure in the ring. The answer is, you box a lot. Meditation is not gonna cut it.

There is another problem with Chi Gung. There’s no such thing as Chi. The whole idea of Chi is based on antiquated notions about the way the body works. So if the point of Chi Gung is to focus and control "Chi." Well guess what, it doesn’t exist.

[MercuryTurrent]

when science proved that "Water" was not an element, it still adopted the word water for the formula H2O. same with ki (chi, but its spelled "ki" for the record). i apopted this "inner strength" concept to refer to how you can bring you emotions forward for something. 100% of your strenght isn't going to be as strong as 100% of your strength when you're adrenelin is kicked into gear. dont think of ki as some magical inner force, rather the way you can control your mind, so as to demand maximum performance out of your body.

but i do agree with you soho; getting into the ring and dukkin' it out with people helps alot more then maintaining calm on a grass field, when you are talking about preparing for fighting.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Ahh yes, but getting into the ring primarily helps with getting into the ring. Roy Harris posted in an article that really does a fine job of outlining the difference between "NHB" and real life fight. And until events like the fictional "Thunderdome" become reality, the street is still the do all end all.

Guys who compete in NHB are usually better prepared for a fight than guys who don't. But there are always exceptions. There are no mats, no refs, etc etc....

I am not saying the Chi Kung will make you a better fighter per say. What I am trying to point out is that it can teach you methods that will focus and relax almost anywhere at anytime.

I am also not saying that Chi Kung is "better" than BJJ or anything else. What I AM saying is that it is a good method for fine tuning the mind and body.

I absolutely agree with you that the only way to train is by getting in the ring and gettin' it on.

It's hard to put yourself in life and death situations on a regular basis. But I suppose that is one method for "realitly" training.

[soho]

If you want to use the term "Ki" to refer to emotional control that’s cool. However if your actually taking Chi Gung classes you are probably learning exercises that supposedly allow you to control the flow of your chi. This supposedly allows you to do all kinds of interesting things. Ever see the Shoulin monks perform. By the way it’s pronounced "Ki" by the Japanese "Chi" by the Chinese.

I guess it really comes down to what do you want to spend your time doing. Rolling, Boxing, and Clinching, or meditating on a grass field, and hitting your-self in the stomach the way they sometimes do in Chi Gung classes. I believe the former has both physical and mental benefits. The later well I think my opinion is pretty clear.

[aseepish]

chi, qi, ji, chee

The "chee" in Tai Ch'i is not the same "chee" as Chi Kung. This is a popular misconception due to the Wade-Giles system of romanizing Chinese that is in wide use in North America and other places with a large overseas Chinese community (with the exceptions of Singapore and Malaysia). If you've got Chinese support turn it on and check out the difference:

Ì«¼«È Æø¹¦

The first three characters are for Tai Ch'i - Taijiquan in the Pinyin romanization. The second two are Chi Kung - Qigong. It is the qi in qigong that refers to "internal energy" or "spirit" or whatever you want to call it in English. The ji in Taiji means "pole" or "extreme".

-Tony

[aseepish]

With Western European encoding, the Chinese characters come out funny, but for my browser this is what I'm seeing

tai ji qi [vertical line]

so if you're seeing what I'm seeing, you can still see the difference between ji and qi.

[Szczepankiewicz]

The extent that we incorporate Chi Kung is the simple meditation exercises that help gain calm and focus. I've never went to the grass field and hit myself in the stomach...

If that was your impression then I can see what you mean. But the simple breathing exercises coupled with pressure point massage techniques are very useful. I use them all the time in daily life. Chanting mantras, snorting incense and walking on hot coals ain't my cup o tea either...

[soho]

On the Chi in Tai Chi. I rememberd the "grand ultimate fist" meaning after I send the post. Silly me.

And by all mean I hope everyone is enjoying their Qigung.