Sakuraba & The Gracies

[crazyjoe380]

Yes Rickson fought many people....


their will always be legends....


their will always be youngsters to replace the old fighters...

so if mike tyson calls joe frazier a coward for not fighting...he's a coward???


Rick already done his time in the ring...the only reason you're trippin rob is cause he didn't fight Sakuraba...

**** it...mabey SAKU can beat him ..mabey not....
but it's always gonna be like that... and if you dont let it go..you're going to remember Rickson ..not as a great fighter but a that guy who didn't fight SAKURABA..and that aint right..i know he aint scared but "LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS"... people hyped up royce..the media the public talkin shit...and royce underestimated the top fighting game ... jiu jitsu can be stopped...all it takes is time to learn....

shit happends.....let it ride...

one day the same shit will happend to SAKU...
some young muf****a is gonna challenge his old ass and he's gonna be like..**** that i have nothing to prove...

remember that...

[Rock Ape]

Roy Jones Jnr ?

How anyone can compare Rickson to Roy Jones Jnr is beyond me and it does not warrant a long and formal response. All I can state is that those who can even mention the two in the same sentence, probably have no idea about MMA and Boxing in general, and should probably stick to their Playstation 2 Game Console.

[Bau]

Rob..

You seem pretty pissed off about who Rickson HASN'T fought...so why not just go over to his school and ask him about it??

Obviously whatever anyone says here wont change your mind...and it shouldn't
but at least give the man and his fans some respect....jeeez

aabout Wilt....

The guy averaged 50 pts a game and even scored 100 in one single game!!!...know why????
No -one could stop him....NO COMPETITION......dont tell me Russell and Walton had ANYTHING on him.....they didn't
They were great rivals?....he's dropping 50 on em everynight....not really rivals if you ask me...

Wilt Vs Shaq???.....hmmmm

Rickson Vs Frank Shamrock???

[gracieclan]

I dont know how this forum went from Sakuraba to Rickson, so I'll respond to both. The reason Sakuraba is so succeccful against the Gracies is his unbelievable balance which makes him nearly impossible to take down. Now, regarding Rickson, anyone who can't spell his name correctly obviously doesn't know enough on the subject to offer an opinion. He beat Takada twice in pride, that's the guy who runs the gym that Sakuraba trains in, and he is a legitimate fighter. He's beaten guys like Mark Coleman and F. Shamrock.

[gracieclan]

to Rob B; Royce is not Royler's big brother, Royler is older. Just a technical correction.

[Rob B]

crazyjoe,

No, I am not going to let this go, I am not going to let it ride. This is something I feel strongly about and I am not going to censor myself because it may be unpopular on a BJJ board. Believe me, I'm not alone on this; alot of people are going to remember Rickson as the man that cared more about money than he did his family. We all know that he isn't scared of Sak in a physicall sense but what he is scared of is losing. He is scared of losing his mystique, his aura and his claim of being the undefeated family champion. Technique wise he is one of the best (along with Carley and Rolls), but in my mind he can NEVER be looked at as a truly great fighter; he just doesn't have the stomach for it.

If you look at Muhhamed Ali, he was considered the greatest of all time not because of his technique or his won loss record. He was considered the greatest because of his heart, his beliefs and his accomplishments. He fought the best in the world and even though he didn't come out on top all of the time, people still respected him. In fact imagine if he Ali didn't fight Frazier, Foreman or Norton, ducked them and retired undefeated, would he still have been the greatest. I doubt that his legacy would have been the same.

[Rob B]

Bau,

"You seem pretty pissed off about who Rickson HASN'T fought...so why not just go over to his school and ask him about it??"

Well maybe Bau, maybe you can tell me who Rickson HAS fought. Any of the top 10 middle or heavyweights fighting today would have blown through the Japanese Vale Tudo, oh and if your going to tell me about Hugo Duarte the great Luta Livre champion, well Mark Kerr and Tank Abott already answered that one for me. And you know what, if I'm in his part of the country maybe i will stop by and ask. Nobody at his website ever answered me.

"but at least give the man and his fans some respect....jeeez"

Rickson does deserve respect for being a great Jui Jitsu fighter, maybe the best ever; but as a NHB fighter he is really unproven. The reason I reacted the way I did was because it seems that in alot of people's eyes he can do no wrong. Someone on this thread stated that Rickson would destroy Sak; i pointed out that he had 3 different chances but never took advantage of them.

"The guy averaged 50 pts a game and even scored 100 in one single game!!!...know why????
No -one could stop him....NO COMPETITION......dont tell me Russell and Walton had ANYTHING on him.....they didn't
They were great rivals?....he's dropping 50 on em everynight....not really rivals if you ask me..."

Thats one of the silliest things I've heard, tell that to any of the sports writers who documented their rivalry and battles. Tell that to Bill Russell who won 8 NBA championships in a row while Wilt had 2. Tell that to Kareem who surpassed Wilt for all time points. Sure Wilt may have gotten the edge on stats when they played head to head, but the fact of the matter is that Russell, Kareem and Walton were the BEST around at the time and Chamberlain played against them.

Even if Wilt was still alive, Shaq vs. Wilt is a non issue; Wilt would have been RETIRED for the past 20 years. Rickson has made no formal declaration of retirement. He was an active fighter when Sak was beating his brothers, in fact he fought Funaki after Sak was finished with Renzo. So they BOTH were fighting at the same time. Unlike your analogy.

[Rob B]

Gracieclan,

You're right, Royler is older than Royce. I guess I was comparing their physical stature

Anyways about Takada; we all know that Takada is no where near the level of Sak. The Coleman fight was an obvious work and I don't know about the F. Shamrock one. When did that happen, what event?

[Szczepankiewicz]

I have a lot of respect for the Gracies (and anyone else who steps up), however I believe the point of this thread is that:

1) The Gracie family has repeatedly made claims to having the number one fight system in the world. Dating back to AT LEAST UFC 1 and Royce's interview.

2) I have read all over the place how Rickson has either personally claimed to be the best Gracie fighter, or has had that title bestowed upon him by family members or others.

3) If you claim to be the best, you have to prove it day in and day out. Live by the sword die by the sword. If you claim to be the best fighter in the world then you should accept all challenges, or disclaim that you are the best fighter.

Either Rickson is the best or he is not. If he believes he is the best and makes continuous claim to that fact, then it is upon him to prove it again and again and again. If Rickson does not fight Sak, or anyone else who wants to fight him, he will probably leave a legacy to that fact. Not that he was the greatest ever, but that he didn't fight one guy.

Being the top dog is a biotch.

SZ

[Bau]

Rob....

Yes.... Todays NHB champions would breeze through the JVT's...BUT none of them were there....cos they weren't shit in the NHB world at the time....

Even if you put them in the ring with Rickson at that point in time ...I believe they would have alot of work to do to beat him...

about Wilt...totally out of subject but I brought it up so...

Yeah sure Russell had more championships at the time BUt he had a better TEAM....I dont care what sport writers have said..none of those "rivals" could beat Wilt one on one....he was too big and too good..

PLus about the retirement thing...fighting is not like basketball...
where you retire at a certain age and STAY out of the game..
you CAN fight whenever you want....kinda like Foreman...
If Rickson wanted to fight Sak or Frank or Tito...I;m sure he would..

Tell me ...if you were 40+ years old and fought your share of NHB fights.... why would you want to fight a young champion at his prime??? Just because a bunch of internet forum guys want him to??? I guess he's not insecure about his own skills like some people are....he knows he has nothing to prove and he leaves it at that...not like some punk in the street who fights with a guy just cos he called him a pussy...

Yes....Sak beat Royler, Renzo and Royce....isn;t Rickson supposed to be better that the three anyways???....He knows it, and they all know it...nothing to prove.....well...just to the internet guys who think so .. and I dont think he's too bothered about what they think anyways..Although I would LOVE to see him fight one of those top guys...HIGHLY UNLIKELY

anyways....to me , Rickson has proved himself to be a great fighter...
to you , he hasn't

just our opinions....

[Roy Gaflaer]

What cave has the guy who made this thread been living in?

[Rob B]

"Yes.... Todays NHB champions would breeze through the JVT's...BUT none of them were there....cos they weren't shit in the NHB world at the time....

Even if you put them in the ring with Rickson at that point in time ...I believe they would have alot of work to do to beat him..."

Here I was pointing out Rickson competition or should I say lack of competition. These are the only names that I have ever found on his resume other than Zulu and Hugo, who were sub par at best. I do share your opinion though that Rickson would be very difficult to beat even for todays athlete. But again that's just based on reputation and not fights, more most fight fans he is still an unknown.

"Yeah sure Russell had more championships at the time BUt he had a better TEAM....I dont care what sport writers have said..none of those "rivals" could beat Wilt one on one....he was too big and too good.."

Who in the h e l l cares if nobody could beat him one on one, last time I checked Basketball was a TEAM sport. For all of Chamberlain's awesome individual might, Russell always found a way to nudge his team past Chamberlain's. Perhaps Chamberlain's team wasn't as good as Russell's. Perhaps Chamberlain was asked to do too much. But although Russell lost the individual statistical battles, he won the war. In the years they went head-to-head, Russell's team won 11 titles in 13 seasons. Chamberlain's won one. If Wilt was Superman, Russell was Kryptonite.

"PLus about the retirement thing...fighting is not like basketball...
where you retire at a certain age and STAY out of the game..
you CAN fight whenever you want....kinda like Foreman...
If Rickson wanted to fight Sak or Frank or Tito...I;m sure he would.."

Then tell me why doesn't he; People have stated that he's in better shape now than he ever was. He has the oppertunity, why doesn't he take it??

"Tell me ...if you were 40+ years old and fought your share of NHB fights.... why would you want to fight a young champion at his prime??? Just because a bunch of internet forum guys want him to???"

For his so called family pride, he's spent years stating that his families style was the best. Now that his family has been decimated and fight fans all over the world are asking him to back up his statements he's no where to be seen. He comes up with excuse like - Sak has no Aura, or Sak has no warrior spirit; Absolute BS. He shouldn't say things that he cannot back up, If he's afraid to fight Sak he should just say it.

Look at Muhammed Ali before his fight with Foreman. Everyone was saying that Ali was over the hill and he'd get destroyed by the young powerhouse. He stepped in and shocked the world, knocking out the unbeatable Foreman.

"Yes....Sak beat Royler, Renzo and Royce....isn;t Rickson supposed to be better that the three anyways???....He knows it, and they all know it...nothing to prove"

Well Since Sak beat Royler,Renzo and Royce wouldn't this make for a classic match up? Here is the man that has destroyed your brothers and your cousin. Here's the man that beat 2 of them with the Kimura lock, the same move that broke your fathers arm. He's calling you out in front of the world, Rickson Gracie the family champion. If Rickson really believed the things he said he would have fought.

--- I've come here to prove my families style is the best ---

Well here is your chance Rickson, go prove it!!!!!!

"anyways....to me , Rickson has proved himself to be a great fighter... to you , he hasn't"

I don't know what you base greatness on; for me it's based on heart, desire and accomplishments. Like Helio Gracie beating the number 2 at the Kodokan and then lasting 15 minutes with Kimura
even after a broken arm. Like Muhammed Ali facing Frazier and Foreman when nobody gave him a chance. Like Chamberlain and Russell battling for 13 years and always bringing out the best each other. You see, thats what greatness is to me; having the guts to back your words up; taking on all challenges as they are presented. It means, not taking the easy road and seeking out the best possible challenges for you; being so driven that you are NOT AFRAID TO LOSE. By not taking Sak's challenge, Rickson has shown none of these traits.

[Halloween Jack]

Originally posted by gracieclan
He beat Takada twice in pride, that's the guy who runs the gym that Sakuraba trains in, and he is a legitimate fighter. He's beaten guys like Mark Coleman and F. Shamrock.

Takada has a record of 3-5-2. Coleman's the only notable fighter he's ever beaten, his other wins were over Alexander Otsuka (2-8-0) and a one-timer named Kyle Sturgeon (Takada was his only MMA fight). He's a lot like Tank Abbott: He rolls over the little twinkies who don't know anything about the game, but with one or two exceptions, he gets squished every time he goes up against someone who really knows their stuff. Takada's dental hygiene is better, though.

[Roy Gaflaer]

Originally posted by Rob B
"Yes.... Todays NHB champions would breeze through the JVT's...BUT none of them were there....cos they weren't shit in the NHB world at the time....

Even if you put them in the ring with Rickson at that point in time ...I believe they would have alot of work to do to beat him..."

Here I was pointing out Rickson competition or should I say lack of competition. These are the only names that I have ever found on his resume other than Zulu and Hugo, who were sub par at best. I do share your opinion though that Rickson would be very difficult to beat even for todays athlete. But again that's just based on reputation and not fights, more most fight fans he is still an unknown.

"Yeah sure Russell had more championships at the time BUt he had a better TEAM....I dont care what sport writers have said..none of those "rivals" could beat Wilt one on one....he was too big and too good.."

Who in the h e l l cares if nobody could beat him one on one, last time I checked Basketball was a TEAM sport. For all of Chamberlain's awesome individual might, Russell always found a way to nudge his team past Chamberlain's. Perhaps Chamberlain's team wasn't as good as Russell's. Perhaps Chamberlain was asked to do too much. But although Russell lost the individual statistical battles, he won the war. In the years they went head-to-head, Russell's team won 11 titles in 13 seasons. Chamberlain's won one. If Wilt was Superman, Russell was Kryptonite.

"PLus about the retirement thing...fighting is not like basketball...
where you retire at a certain age and STAY out of the game..
you CAN fight whenever you want....kinda like Foreman...
If Rickson wanted to fight Sak or Frank or Tito...I;m sure he would.."

Then tell me why doesn't he; People have stated that he's in better shape now than he ever was. He has the oppertunity, why doesn't he take it??

"Tell me ...if you were 40+ years old and fought your share of NHB fights.... why would you want to fight a young champion at his prime??? Just because a bunch of internet forum guys want him to???"

For his so called family pride, he's spent years stating that his families style was the best. Now that his family has been decimated and fight fans all over the world are asking him to back up his statements he's no where to be seen. He comes up with excuse like - Sak has no Aura, or Sak has no warrior spirit; Absolute BS. He shouldn't say things that he cannot back up, If he's afraid to fight Sak he should just say it.

Look at Muhammed Ali before his fight with Foreman. Everyone was saying that Ali was over the hill and he'd get destroyed by the young powerhouse. He stepped in and shocked the world, knocking out the unbeatable Foreman.

"Yes....Sak beat Royler, Renzo and Royce....isn;t Rickson supposed to be better that the three anyways???....He knows it, and they all know it...nothing to prove"

Well Since Sak beat Royler,Renzo and Royce wouldn't this make for a classic match up? Here is the man that has destroyed your brothers and your cousin. Here's the man that beat 2 of them with the Kimura lock, the same move that broke your fathers arm. He's calling you out in front of the world, Rickson Gracie the family champion. If Rickson really believed the things he said he would have fought.

--- I've come here to prove my families style is the best ---

Well here is your chance Rickson, go prove it!!!!!!

"anyways....to me , Rickson has proved himself to be a great fighter... to you , he hasn't"

I don't know what you base greatness on; for me it's based on heart, desire and accomplishments. Like Helio Gracie beating the number 2 at the Kodokan and then lasting 15 minutes with Kimura
even after a broken arm. Like Muhammed Ali facing Frazier and Foreman when nobody gave him a chance. Like Chamberlain and Russell battling for 13 years and always bringing out the best each other. You see, thats what greatness is to me; having the guts to back your words up; taking on all challenges as they are presented. It means, not taking the easy road and seeking out the best possible challenges for you; being so driven that you are NOT AFRAID TO LOSE. By not taking Sak's challenge, Rickson has shown none of these traits.

Rickson is 10 times the man you are!!! it's obvious you've never rolled with the man! Rickson isn't the #1 paid fighter in the world for nothing!

[Bau]

Rob

I was talking about Rickson's status in NHB and comparing it to Wilts in the NBA

Both clearly dominated all their opponents back in the day...

Wilt talked about Jordan ALL the time...yet no one said...well..why dont you play MJ one on one then???
Why expect Rickson to fight all the young guns now???

where'd this TEAM sport shit come from??.. I mentioned Russells team once only cos you were all ..."oh Russell had more championships"....yeah,,,just cos of his team...He wasn't a better INDIVIDUAL player than Wilt....

ok enough NBA talk...I shouldn't have brought it up cos its gotten you excited...

ANYWAYS...

yeah Rickson said that he came to Japan to prove his familys style is the best..... um.....how many years ago was this??

He said it during the JVT's and beat everyone ...
AND spread the word of GJJ to the whole of Japan....GJJ is VERY well known there now....because of him....

I think he proved his point...

Many years later ...Sak comes along and beats his brothers
Why does Rickson have to fight him now? He's older and proved his point back in the day... yeah... he said some B. S about Sak having no aura....I'm sure it was just sour grapes cos Sak whupped his brothers...I bet he even regrets saying that...but he's human... Its not like he said....BUT GJJ is still the best!!!( cos its obviously not the best ...ANYMORE)

I read somewhere that Sak himself said he wouldn't take the fight if he were in Rickson's shoes...with the age difference and all

You talk about Gracie family pride like you ARE a Gracie!!
damn!...what does Rickson owe you?? Why should he fight cos a bunch of internet people thinks he should?

Ricksons fans (well his real fans) respect his descisions....
I would LOVE to see him fight Sak....but he wont......so be it!!!

let it go dude