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**mushinmaster** · 03-19-2002, 06:55 PM

that sounds like the thematic essay from my history final

**kid lock** · 03-19-2002, 09:53 PM

I was just at this video store named SUNCOAST looking at PRIDE videos when I overheard this guy on the other side ( The Kung FU and Karate section) saying that this guy wants to fight him but he doesn't know that he knows Karate. He said "If he doesn't know Kung Foo or Karate he's in trouble". He was also demonstrating some sort of move to some guy that he was going to do, that would of took way to long, and could of easily got him knocked out. I respect the art but I have never seen it on the street. Have you ever seen the UFC fight where the Kook Sool Wan Fung Fu Master fights Gary Goodridge and gets knocked out in about a minute? So yea, I think Karate is out because of the ground game that just works so well!

**Szczepankiewicz** · 03-20-2002, 10:25 AM

Damn Reverend 380,

Where did you get all these good questions? And not one reference to.... ah, but the thread is still young

I remember I loved Karate and martial arts movies when I was a kid. I was 8 in 1980 so that gives you a reference. When I was in Jr. High I was in Tang Soo Do for about three months. I was never under the impression that I could kick ass because of this stuff. But I thought it would be awesome to have ninja powers and karate skills galore.

I knew that none of the tough kids did any kind of training, they just hurt people, or lived under the reputation of hurting people. When I hit freshman year, I got into weights and football and people, including all seniors stopped messing with me. I got really big really fast.

I didn't get interested in the Martial Arts again until 1998 when I found a training partner and a full contact school.

Back to the question: the martial arts have evolved from the McDojo mentality to a smaller setting, longer sessions, and mixed styles and techniques. To make any money from a school you have to pack it with students. To prevent money loss from turnover you either hook 'em with contracts, constantly bring in new students, or reward them often to keep them interested. If you don't do these things you can't keep the 'business' running.

That's probably the single biggest factor in the evolution of the McDojo, money. Dedicated teachers cannot make a living unless they charge a bunch of money, or attract droves of would be students. The attrition rate is pretty high so you end up with a few dedicated students who know enough to teach.

Our school is secondary income (barely breaking even) for my instructor. He does it, not to make money, but to teach what he knows. We have 3 advanced students and about 10-15 novices who pay a low monthly fee. I think our school is the representation of "what's old is new again." The way it used to be seems to be the way things are developing again.

The local GJJ guys, who train under Kukuk are training in a similar situation.

SZ

**Roy Gaflaer** · 03-21-2002, 12:02 AM

I used to take karate and I could kick some ass before I learned grappling. Karate works. Haven't you seen The Karate Kid?

**JaredExtreme** · 03-22-2002, 08:00 AM

I think simply the supply and demand for MA has changed dramatically since the 80's. In the suburb of Seattle where I grew up there were THREE different Karate schools & a Judo school within 5 miles of each other.

Before the Karate Kid, there wasn't much demand for MA, then there was a surge of kiddies who wanted to stop being picked on. Thus, Karate schools popped up like boom-towns during the depression.

When I went home last winter break, I noticed that TWO of the Karate schools had shut down. The interesting thing was that the the oldest schools were the ones that survived. (The judo club has been there since the 60's).

So, I guess the purity of the MA's (as Rorian would put it hehe) became dilluted during the 80's, but the good MA schools survived.

**Flash** · 03-22-2002, 11:37 AM

Natural evolution...

I think what's happened is a natural evolution.

Originally, karate was taught in small class settings. If you look at old photos of the old guys training back in Okinawa, they are not even wearing gis - they are training in underwear or their regular clothes. There was a lot of emphasis on conditioning - some of the exercises those guys did look nuts. Training was hard. I imagine those guys could fight but whether they could fight due to their technique or the toughness and strength gained from the hard training or the conditioning is another matter.

Anyway, flashforward and karate comes to America. Guess what? If you want to make a lot of money, you need a lot of students. If you keep training "traditional", i.e. small groups, hard training, lots of conditioning, you aren't going to have a lot of students. So you pare things down. You get rid of the conditioning. You tone down the training. You also teach more and more flashy techniques since that also tends to attract people. Voila! You get more students.

However, most students originally get into the arts because they want to learn how to fight. The watered down training doesn't provide that. Eventually, students realize this (sadly, some don't) and leave watered down schools and go to small groups where hard training and conditioning are emphasized. Things come around full circle.

Basically, what the MacDojo's did to gain more students ended up shooting themselves in the foot because the majority of people who take up martial arts training want to learn how to fight and the MacDojo's were not providing that. I think having a lot of students and being "prosperous" as a martial arts teacher and being an EFFECTIVE martial arts teacher are almost contradictory unless you land a nice fat contract with a law enforcement or military group.

**Flash** · 03-22-2002, 11:51 AM

Re: Natural evolution...

Another thing I'd like to mention is what could be called the "Master Po Syndrome". For some bizarre reason, a lot of people expect a martial arts instructor to be some sort of philosphical and mystical Obi-Wan Kenobi or Master Po type person - a person who has the wisdome of the sages and can kick ass. I suspect this stereotype was started and propagated by hippies during the 60's or something.

If you do any reading or research on the martial arts "masters" of old, if you are perfectly honest with yourself, you will realize that these people would be considered thugs or sociopaths TODAY. These people knew how to fight and did not hesitate to fight. One Taijiquan master killed a man for challenging him. This is Taijiquan, the art practiced today by groovy hippies trying to "align their qi". Yang Cheng-Fu, the man who popularized Taijiquan was reputed to having seriously injured or killed several of his students when demonstrating techniques. The founder of Aikido was also reputed to be quite a tough guy in his youth before he got all mystical. The man who taught O'Sensei Aikijutsu was reputed to be even more of a borderline sociopath. The bottom line is, these guys weren't Master Po types. And I'm only talking about the practitioners of so-called "soft" arts. The Shaolin "monks" in all likelihood were bandits or revolutionaries who were seeking sanctuary or hiding out at the various Shaolin temples.

A lot of people go into martial arts schools thinking they'll find a Master Po and I think a lot of the MacDojo's sort of took advantage of that to gain students, playing up the whole "mystical martial arts teacher myth". I think once people realized this was bogus (along with any claims of fighting superiority), they got disillusioned and left the MacDojo's (and probably the martial arts).

**Karate_is_cool** · 03-14-2004, 03:35 AM

karate is way too commercialized today. its a business now. a way to make money. so many kids and so many wallets. i now study in a small dojo that teaches kyokushin (full contact karate). its not your typical karate style so dont imagine me fighting a guy with a reverse punch lol. before i started to take kyokushin in a small dojo i wanted to open up my own mcdojo (not realizing what i was thinking at the time). this was because i grew up in the club and adapted their way of thinking. i saw how much money the sensei was making and wanted that to be my future. i thought to myself - "how easy is this? i want to have a successful career and make lots of money. i love karate, so why not do this and get rich?" man im so glad i left. too much greed on the mind and not enough enough substance. we need a revolution. down with the mcdojo!!!

.... now i need to find another way to get rich lol

we must preserve the true spirit of karate!!

**Dim Wit Moc** · 03-16-2004, 10:40 AM

There is much more awareness of the diversity of martial arts. There wasn't much to choose from in styles in the 60's. No knocks on the arts that existed because they have a lot to offer, but the store was pretty limited. There are many more arts to choose from now. There is much more of an emphasis on grappling now. Many traditionalists do not like this, but it is a reality of modern warfare.

As far as "Master Po Types", I would hate to see martial arts schools turn into training schools for thugs. Just teaching people more effective ways to practice violence without a solid philosophical and ethical foundation is both irresponsible and unethical. I'm not saying each sensei should be an ordained minister, but they should be teaching the social responsibility that goes along with effective self defense techiniques. The general public has absolutely nothing against martial arts schools because of the perception that students are learning to use their skills as a last resort, and that discipline and self control are essential. If that perception ever changes, then martial arts schools will become a political issue like gun control. We do not want our arts to become political issues. I would hope that each sinsei has a little Master Po in him or her.

**Tom Yum** · 03-16-2004, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Dim Wit Moc

There are many more arts to choose from now. There is much more of an emphasis on grappling now. Many traditionalists do not like this, but it is a reality of modern warfare.

As far as "Master Po Types", I would hate to see martial arts schools turn into training schools for thugs. Just teaching people more effective ways to practice violence without a solid philosophical and ethical foundation is both irresponsible and unethical. I'm not saying each sensei should be an ordained minister, but they should be teaching the social responsibility that goes along with effective self defense techiniques. The general public has absolutely nothing against martial arts schools because of the perception that students are learning to use their skills as a last resort, and that discipline and self control are essential. If that perception ever changes, then martial arts schools will become a political issue like gun control. We do not want our arts to become political issues. I would hope that each sinsei has a little Master Po in him or her.

Sounds like you are concerned about grappling or grappling hybrid styles falling into the wrong hands.

Its usually "John/Jane Q Public" that likes to type cast MAists as thugs, because they watch a 5 second clip of the Jackson v. Silva Pride fight and then let their 1st impression and group think take over.

MMA fighters are generally more aggressive than other martial artists, but only because they make a living by fighting and winning, but that doesn't make them bad people. Other MAists want realistic and intense training, but more for self-defense or fitness or both.

Remember Karate Kid and the Cobra Kai school? Just an example of how traditional arts can set good/bad examples.

**brokenelbow** · 03-16-2004, 12:11 PM

I'll ditto Flash. I'm getting more involved with karate but it's small setting, small group. It's interesting to see training partners get better by working techniques instead of working towards a belt.

**Dim Wit Moc** · 03-16-2004, 02:38 PM

Tom Yum: It wasn't my intent to single out any art or arts in my comments. As you say, the potential is there for a problem whether it be a traditional school, grappling oriented school or any other school. I attended classes at a traditional kung fu school for a while (style and location unnamed) and the guy seemed to really enjoy teaching how to break elbows, ripping out throats, injuring eyes, and causing serious injury and death. He seemed to be a Count Dante type with loose screws, and believe me he wasn't just talk. The guy was kind of terrifying. I never remember him talking about any social responsibility. One day he was bragging about one of his black sashes who had taken out some guy in an altercation, and he was really getting high off it. I didn't stay there very long.

We do not need people running around with guns, knives, or serious martial arts training who have not been forced to "grapple" intellectually with the ethical, and situational issues that they might come into contact with.

**masterdan** · 03-17-2004, 12:09 PM

I think the popularity of martial arts in the 80's ruined it. It became a sell out. May I mention Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

**robertlee** · 03-17-2004, 04:14 PM

After the first UFC is when things saw more change. Stand up arts had not worked there ground training. So they were weak there. But even today I say the Gracies are weak in stand up. But they are working to better that feild of training. Today now you have more mixed M/A geared towards live training. Karate any traditional art Has a set path of learning. The person doing it has to explore his needs. Karate has some good tools. Just have to train them for combat not required learning. Now twenty years from now who Knows what will be the in thing.

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How did Martial arts change from the 80's till now? Karate a dying breed?

How did Martial arts change from the 80's till now? Karate a dying breed?

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